Zidane or Riquelme?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

The problem I have with this argument is that it's purely self-serving. If one argues subjectively, "Well, that's all aesthetics." If one argues objectively, "Awards are just a crock." It's perfect: you get to win every time this way!
And I had read this thread.
Have a nice day... in your own little world, in which you're never wrong.

You clearly had not read the thread or you would not have been stupid enough to first attempt to play the achievements card and then attempt to defend it.

[Moishe]

Hi Sundance, nice to see my quote on your opening post. To the argument at hand, no surprise but I'll take Roman. From the technical aspect it's clearly a wash. Both are elegant beautiful players to watch when in sync. Mentally it can go either way. Roman clearly is tempermental but he's also never been an idiot to the degree ZZ has been in getting sent off in WC and Euro finals.

Be it a given that Roman has led BOCA whenever he's there, he's still sorrounded by some really quality players. Zizou has always been around out and out superstars. When Roman left BOCA it was obvious but when ZZ left Juve for example, they saw no drop off at all. Could've ZZ carried Villarreal or any other small team the same way Roman did? Maybe but we'll never know what we do know is Riquelme took a team with no expectation to the CL finals where aside from a missed pk, he was brilliant. Fact is no team has missed ZZ not being there while Villarreal w/o Riquelme really havent been that impressive and nowhere near a CL's final.

[Parsifal]

Zidane is the best player of his generation if you believe what FIFA awards and Nike adverts tell you, and nevermind those silly youtube videos. I am sensible enough to place the often forgotten Pablo Aimar above Zidane in terms of quality.

[Twenty26Six]

Achievements are a crock at the best of times because they are heavily dependent on the team you play for. Had you bothered to read the thread then you would have realised that and not wasted our time. Besides, while I think that both players can be easily compared my main issue here is people who rate Zidane aesthetically and then refuse to admit they have done so.

Once you admitted that Zidane had aesthetic value and made the argument a question of his effectiveness and efficiency, I began to agree with most of what you're saying.

But, this goes both ways. You could easily make the case that, based on ability and talent alone, Zidane deserves to be included in the top 25 of all-time. And, you could also say that he was not nearly as effective as those talents should have made him.

Even still, I can't see Riquelme replicating Zidane's accomplishments with the same supporting cast. Zidane was not an imposing force at all times, but he did have immense respect from his teammates on the French National team and he was a vital, irreplaceable part of all the teams he played on. Riquelme has never held his nerve with any club outside of Argentina. So, while Riquelme is of immense quality, he should fall short of Zidane in terms of effectiveness.

I rate both very highly, based purely on entertainment value - which I feel is equal in value to effectiveness on the pitch [in terms of results, goals, wins]. Let's face it, both these guys are icing on the cake. Their talents alone would never mean anything without great players around them. But, that doesn't mean people shouldn't enjoy what they have brought to the game.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

You have completely forgotten about Riquelme at Villarreal.

[Twenty26Six]

You have completely forgotten about Riquelme at Villarreal.

No, I haven't. In fact, my appreciation for Riquelme was rooted in his performances for Villareal.

Was he fantastic for them? Yes. But, he also bottled a penalty in the CL semi-final and was happy to leave the club soon after. Those aren't the actions of a mentally strong competitor.

If he comes back to Europe and shines in future Champion's League efforts. I'd be inclined to rethink my comparison with Zidane. But, as of now, Riquelme hasn't done as much.

But, I do think the players are similar in ability, style, and attitude.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

You cannot define his time at Villarreal by one saved penalty. He was also forced out of the club after a falling out with staff that left him left out of the side. That is why he was happy when he finally moved back to Boca on-loan. Therefore your comments in regard to his character are rather unfair. Riquelme matched Zidane performance wise in my opinion and even exceeded it over the course of full season (when you compare their 'peaks') while at Villarreal. If he can perform so well with a far worse supporting cast but also with a great supporting cast for Argentina (as the last two tournaments have proven) then how can you still think what you do? The question is whether Zidane could perform in the same manner for a side like Villarreal or even Boca.

[Twenty26Six]

You cannot define his time at Villarreal by one saved penalty. He was also forced out of the club after a falling out with staff that left him left out of the side. That is why he was happy when he finally moved back to Boca on-loan. Therefore your comments in regard to his character are rather unfair.

Unfair, yes. But, true. The body language and reaction of Riquelme were easily readable before and after taking that penalty. A stronger willed player would not have been forced out of Barca or Villareal like he had.

Riquelme matched Zidane performance wise in my opinion and even exceeded it over the course of full season (when you compare their 'peaks') while at Villarreal.

Comparing peaks. They are similar. But, Zidane has done more over extended periods of time. Riquelme's best club efforts were isolated to the spring of 2006. Zidane's were over a period of years.

If he can perform so well with a far worse supporting cast but also with a great supporting cast for Argentina (as the last two tournaments have proven) then how can you still think what you do? The question is whether Zidane could perform in the same manner for a side like Villarreal or even Boca.

Copa America is inferior to the Euros in many ways. The Confederations Cup isn't the same as the World Cup. Apart from that, Riquelme featured in Germany '06 - where Riquelme's superior Argentina side could not go as far as Zidane's inferior French side. You could blame Pekerman, but Domenech isn't exactly a genius by comparison.

Zidane, by your own admission, has stepped up hi splay in specific "popular" games. Riquelme has yet to lead a team to victory.

[Twenty26Six]

Anyway, I feel that both players would have been more effective in earlier tme periods. And, both players would be seen as legendary in a game less influenced by athleticism and organization.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Disclaimer: I do not hate Zidane!

Unfair, yes. But, true. The body language and reaction of Riquelme were easily readable before and after taking that penalty. A stronger willed player would not have been forced out of Barca or Villareal like he had.

I thought he would miss as well but the same applies to numerous players. Just because someone missed a penalty does not immediately discredit everything else they have done and should not be focused on. That applies to any player. A stronger willed player or an ignorant/stupid player? Riquelme knew he was never going to get a fair chance at Barcelona and knew his time at Villarreal was over so he chose to move on. I don't think he can be blamed for that. Would you rather he was still rotting away in Barcelona's B-team just to prove that he is strong willed?

Comparing peaks. They are similar. But, Zidane has done more over extended periods of time. Riquelme's best club efforts were isolated to the spring of 2006. Zidane's were over a period of years.

Really? I personally think Riquelme was better the season before in 04/05 and continued that over into the next season before having a very good World Cup. He was better in that period than Zidane was during his peak years, in my opinion.

Copa America is inferior to the Euros in many ways. The Confederations Cup isn't the same as the World Cup. Apart from that, Riquelme featured in Germany '06 - where Riquelme's superior Argentina side could not go as far as Zidane's inferior French side. You could blame Pekerman, but Domenech isn't exactly a genius by comparison.

I am aware of that but it is still a big tournament. Riquelme had a very good World Cup regardless, with Argentina's chances ended the second he was subbed off. I would also argue he had a better World Cup than Zidane did, despite France reaching the final and Zidane having one good game and scoring two penalties before yet another moment of thuggish madness. Comparing the squads there is little between them in terms of quality. The problem with France was simply that they struggled to perform and limped both there and through. Zidane was a big part of those poor performances. Granted he showed up once when required and played well but it was merely a blip.

Zidane, by your own admission, has stepped up hi splay in specific "popular" games. Riquelme has yet to lead a team to victory.

He has led Boca many a time (last season being the latest) and was very unlucky to not do similar with Villarreal or Argentina. Has Zidane really ever led any of his teams? Granted he has done okay in some clutch games but he has never really featured in getting a team to said games.

[User Name]

Who are these idiots saying Zidane is overatted saying he never dominated games but the tricks and flicks glossed over. I remember watching him at Juventus completely dictate games. I think against Ajax in the champions league in 96-98? somewhen, he completely ran the show. The one I most remember is when we played Real Madrid in 2003 at the Benebau, Zidane was toying with us the whole game, he even made Keane look like a kid chasing him around. Or even against Brazil recently, every dangerous French attack was down to Zidane. When he is playing 'bad' he still produces moments of class and will still always find that pass out.

As much as I love Scholes and Giggs, it is just wrong to say they are better than Zidane. The only thing Giggs has over Zidane is speed. As to Riquelme again, Zidane could do everything Riquelme could and more. Zidane is best attacking midfielder in history after Maradona imo.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Give me strength.

[Robbie Quaid]

Haha! Well I think Zidane is one of the best player's to ever grace the soccer field in the last 20 years. As what happened to him in the final in the 2006 world cup all I can say is ... More power to him! He did the right thing as Materazzi is a hack & a punk & a dirty player. The only time in Materazzi's career where he had a big dose of humble pie in when he played in England & there he was the one that was punked! The fact that Zidane threw it all away defending his family makes me have loads of respect for him! Family should always come first above everything. Italy might have won the world cup but it was a hollow victory. The soccer world hates Materazzi but in turn everybody loves Zidane!:D

[Teso Dos Bichos]

You should not post while drunk. Zidane is also far more of a 'hack & a punk & a dirty player' than Materazzi. A simple look over their careers is proof of that fact. In actual fact, Materazzi is a quality defender and has proved that over his career.

[Robbie Quaid]

Haha! Uh, I'm oly 15 so I'm not a drinker as I don't want to end up with a soaked brain like you have! Haha! Yes I know Zidane is no angel & he also has a history of red cards & the like but unlike Materazzi he's no hack! Materazzi has got away with being a hack the majority of his career because he's played the majority of his soccer in Italy where he's been protected for the most part & the refs' seem to always look the other way when he's been up to his dirty tricks. The only place his dirty tricks didn't work for him was his short stint playing in England where the average EPL player is much tougher than he could ever hope to be. He was the one being pushed around there & after being sent off in one match he went to the side of the field, sat down & cried! Wow! What a tough guy & quality defender! ... Not! As for Zidane well yeah he's got a hot temper but I can't blame the guy when a punk like Materazzi was saying filthy things about Zidane's family members'. I wouldn't just stand there & take it if some fool like Materazzi were to say nasty things about my family either! Fuuny thing is though regardless if you agree with it or not in the end Zidane is much more popular, respected, & loved the world over than Materazzi could ever hope to be! When FIFA came down on both of them it was for a reason ... Zidane & his bad temper & ...Materazzi for being a hack & a very poor liar as he changed his story 3 times when all that went down. For the record Zidane is one hundred times a better player then Materazzi could ever hope to be! Now put that in your pasta & eat it!:D

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Do you even know what Materazzi said?

[Robbie Quaid]

Haha! Maybe you could ask him which of the three lies he ranted to the press & FIFA about is true! Look my point is Zidane didn't just slam Materazzi like that for no reason & Materazzi though I will admit has some quality skills has spent the vast part of his career acting like a punk! He gives Italian soccer a bad name! Cannavaro is a tough player & a much better defender than Materazzi is but unlike Materazzi Cannavaro has class, he's fair, & he respects the teams' & players' he comes up against. Materazzi could learn alot if he were to keep his mouth shut & do away with the cheap shot's & play more like Cannavaro!:D

[Hansadyret]

Riquelme is just a little mosquito compared to Zidane.

[Robbie Quaid]

Haha1 Yeah maybe so but Riquelme is still a good player though! I think what happens with him from time to time is the big expectations that are placed on him get the better of him & then he has a meltdown & folds! Still I like watching the guy play when he's on his game! He's a smart player that's for sure!:D

[Koby7STAR]

Riquelme should have stayed in Europe, though, what do you think of this.