Zidane or Riquelme?

[Massimo_Oddo]

It must be true if you say so...

well what more do you want me to do? post a video of the matches?

Just because he scored in those matches doesnt mean he played great.

[bosterosoy]

As for the topic, wouldn't it be noteworthy to mention Riquelme's failure to raise the stake's in three major tournament's?

Copa America '99 - Eliminated by Brazil

World Cup '06 - Eliminated by Germany

Copa America - Eliminated by a Brazil "B" side!

I mean really with the right intangible's you could make a case that Riquelme was even better than Zico.But in reality...


Copa America 1999, that Argentina was no surprise that they lost to Brasil.

WC 2006, he had the assist in Argentina's goal and then Pekerman decided to go defensive, take him out and give up the tying goal

Copa America 2007 Riquelme did lift his game, or rather not 'lift' his game, but keep the level he maintained for Boca in the Copa Libertadores 2007. The final that was lost was because he wasn't able to make up for all the other 10 players shortcomings (ok 9 because Masche played well). Brasil's gameplan was double, triple mark Riquelme everytime he touches the ball. Argentina lost because the fact that Messi, Tevez, Veron etc etc couldn't play at all despite the focus point of Brasil's defense being Riquelme. Despite all that Riquelme had the only 2 chances of Argentina. One hit the post and another was somehow kept out of the net by a flying Doni. Argentina lost this tourney because the other players didn't step up, not because of Riquelme

[Dr. Know]

The final that was lost was because he wasn't able to make up for all the other 10 players shortcomings (ok 9 because Masche played well).

That and the fact that the captain(Ayala) scored an own goal just when Argentina was starting to create alot of dangerous chances(mostly led by Riquelme) for the tie. After that the team's morale dropped to zero.

[TKORL]

I don't think Argentina lost the final because of Riquelme, however due to using him as the solitary playmaker, after double marking him, it essentially cut off any chances in the final third, and that coupled with Argentina's habit of losing the script if Riquelme's passing options are cut off caused the loss. If you're the opposing manager, the natural tendency is to stop the playmaker, and any player can be marked out of the game if he's double marked. At the same time, he did conjure up some chances and played decently, which is more than what we can say about Kaka in the CL final.

[JuveFE]

kills me to say this but argentina were out coached and out classed in that final.

[Massimo_Oddo]

I don't think Argentina lost the final because of Riquelme, however due to using him as the solitary playmaker, after double marking him, it essentially cut off any chances in the final third, and that coupled with Argentina's habit of losing the script if Riquelme's passing options are cut off caused the loss. If you're the opposing manager, the natural tendency is to stop the playmaker, and any player can be marked out of the game if he's double marked. At the same time, he did conjure up some chances and played decently, which is more than what we can say about Kaka in the CL final.

Apart from Kaka won the freekick which led to the first goal and assisted Inzaghi for the 2nd goal.

[TKORL]

That is because Mascherano was taken off.

[Diego Maradona]

IMO Zidane is better but not that much better

[Massimo_Oddo]

That is because Mascherano was taken off.

good excuse

but you were implying Kaka did nothing in the CL final. I just corrected you though.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

kills me to say this but argentina were out coached and out classed in that final.

Argentina were out kicked.

[TKORL]

good excuse

but you were implying Kaka did nothing in the CL final. I just corrected you though.
Yes, when his marker was taken off he did something, so to come up with a fair comparison you have to compare them while both were marked, and the argument still stands.

If Dunga had decided to leave Riquelme unmarked in the last 30 min of the game the scoreline would have been different.

[Massimo_Oddo]

Yes, when his marker was taken off he did something, so to come up with a fair comparison you have to compare them while both were marked, and the argument still stands.

If Dunga had decided to leave Riquelme unmarked in the last 30 min of the game the scoreline would have been different.

But now you'r changing your argument, thats not what you originally said. And he wonthe freekick for the goal....

We can talk about ifs and buts all day. All we can judge on is what actually happened.

[TKORL]

But now you'r changing your argument, thats not what you originally said. And he wonthe freekick for the goal....

We can talk about ifs and buts all day. All we can judge on is what actually happened.
That was the argument all along, indeed, I did not clarify it at all, however I saw the same match as you, and I'm more than aware that Kaka set up Pirlo and scored himself.

However, the only part that was comparable and relevant to this discussion was when his marker Mascherano was on the field

[Massimo_Oddo]

That was the argument all along, indeed, I did not clarify it at all, however I saw the same match as you, and I'm more than aware that Kaka set up Pirlo and scored himself.

However, the only part that was comparable and relevant to this discussion was when his marker Mascherano was on the field

why is that part only relevant? A game lasts for 90 mins you know. You can't just pick out bits of the game and judge him on that.

[TKORL]

why is that part only relevant? A game lasts for 90 mins you know. You can't just pick out bits of the game and judge him on that.
Sure you can, as I have repeatedly stated, the only part that is comparable is when they had comparable marking schemes. I don't know why that's so hard to understand...

[Massimo_Oddo]

its quite clear that you just selectively pick out the parts of the game that suit your argument.

Besides my point was you said that Kaka did nothing in the CL final. He quite clearly did though so just admit you were wrong.

[erick]

riquelme would beat zidane any day. he got far better moves and he the second best shooter behind c. ronaldo

[phil80]

riquelme would beat zidane any day. he got far better moves and he the second best shooter behind c. ronaldo
Just so you know, Zidane retired. So saying Riquelme is the second best shooter has no relevance in their comparison.

[TKORL]

its quite clear that you just selectively pick out the parts of the game that suit your argument.

Besides my point was you said that Kaka did nothing in the CL final. He quite clearly did though so just admit you were wrong.
As I have repeatedly stated over and over again, the only parts that were comparable were when the appropirate marking schemes were on the field. I don't know why you're lecturing me that Kaka set up the goal, I watched the exact same game that you did.


But congratulations on completely missing my argument. There's no point continuing this further.

[Massimo_Oddo]

As I have repeatedly stated over and over again, the only parts that were comparable were when the appropirate marking schemes were on the field. I don't know why you're lecturing me that Kaka set up the goal, I watched the exact same game that you did.


But congratulations on completely missing my argument. There's no point continuing this further.

that was not your original argument. At first you stated Kaka did nothing in the CL final, but its quite clear he did. Now that you realised you were wrong, you changed your argument. :rolleyes: