Zidane or Riquelme?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

If you add the proviso that Zidane was aesthetically one of the best players of his generation then you would have no argument from me. The fact remains that if you don't look aesthetically then Zidane has been the most overrated player of our generation. He was never the main man on any of his teams, far too often completely disappeared and became a passenger, his record as a clutch player in big games has been blown out of all proportion when you consider the big games he has done little in, his disclipline record is abysmal and his spell of 'consistently' (for him) great and influential performances lasts for a couple of years. His individual achievements are not only unmerited but can be completely disregarded considering the complete farce that these awards have been over recent years. The comparison to Riquelme is a very good one for a variety of reasons.

[Perú FC]

Well, it's the same argument was discussed before, so don't worry Teso Dos Bichos, it's only an opinion. I feel the same tendence that I wrote in my last post yet.

[phil80]

Saying he was never the main man on any of his teams is one of the most foolish things I've ever read. You only need to go back to the last world cup to see what a ridiculous statement that is. Zidane carried a team that was having trouble qualifying in Europe and came out of retirement to get them to not only win their group and qualify for the world cup but go on to the finals. If you are going to make up things atleast make them somewhat believable.

[Moishe]

Zidane never had to be "the man" on any team he played for France included. Those teams again were filled with great great players. As Teso stated, I'll never argue the aesthetics of his play either but does that alone warrant the hype he receives? My question is which side has he been on and has been "the face" of that team? Was it Juve? Doubt it as I'm sure plenty of Juve fans would agree. Real? Again I'd be willing to be most Madristas would chose a Raul as the face of that side over a very close Zidane. Also to factor in is if he was the player he is hyped to have been, why did Bordeaux or Cannes not more successful?

Riquelme on the other hand has without question been the focal point of every team he's played on and his presence is always felt both ways. Phil I believe you were the one that said Villarreal didn't miss in and that results proved that point. Since that statement the quality of the Yellow Submarines performances have gone backwards and aside from a convincing win over a very poor Valencia team, they don't really look to be in a CL slot come seasons end.

[Moishe]

Saying he was never the main man on any of his teams is one of the most foolish things I've ever read. You only need to go back to the last world cup to see what a ridiculous statement that is. Zidane carried a team that was having trouble qualifying in Europe and came out of retirement to get them to not only win their group and qualify for the world cup but go on to the finals. If you are going to make up things atleast make them somewhat believable.

If your comment about France this last World Cup is true, then it stands to reason that Riquelme is every bit as influential based on what happened against Germany. He came off the pitch and Argentina lost all possession and the pk's were nothing more than a formality for Germany. France without Zidane is a better side than Argentina without Riquelme. Even Argentine Riquelme bashers know this.

[jpick]

Since that statement the quality of the Yellow Submarines performances have gone backwards and aside from a convincing win over a very poor Valencia team, they don't really look to be in a CL slot come seasons end.

maybe, but they are still 3rd and within striking distance of second (I am recording the barcelona game, so as for me, villarreal is third two back game in hand, but i don't want to discuss that game, if someone does, use result tags, por favor :)). plus rossi has been hurt, but he is back and nihat is on fire.

it should be noted that I am a huge riquelme fan, but i also like zidane a lot, and I would put zidane as one of the best players of our generation, just my opinion, though, but he is not nearly an all-timer top 10 like people say (or even top 3 some have claimed).

[Moishe]

maybe, but they are still 3rd and within striking distance of second (I am recording the barcelona game, so as for me, villarreal is third two back game in hand, but i don't want to discuss that game, if someone does, use result tags, por favor :)). plus rossi has been hurt, but he is back and nihat is on fire.

it should be noted that I am a huge riquelme fan, but i also like zidane a lot, and I would put zidane as one of the best players of our generation, just my opinion, though, but he is not nearly an all-timer top 10 like people say (or even top 3 some have claimed).

They are within striking distance but yesterday was one result in what has been an awful run of form. I only hope for the best for them as seeing a small club do so well is nice.

I admit my comments are pretty opinionated as I pumped from a century but I do agree with how you rate Zidane. I myself have never disputed his standing with regards to his generation but like I also don't rank as an all-time top 10 or 20 for that matter.

[Volrath]

Saying he was never the main man on any of his teams is one of the most foolish things I've ever read. You only need to go back to the last world cup to see what a ridiculous statement that is. Zidane carried a team that was having trouble qualifying in Europe and came out of retirement to get them to not only win their group and qualify for the world cup but go on to the finals. If you are going to make up things atleast make them somewhat believable.
Well gee, a qualifying group that held superpowers such as Isreal, Ireland and Cyprus:rolleyes:

France were even lucky to come out of their group in that last world cup, hell during the crucial match against Togo, Zidane had to benched for safety reasons because he took too many yellow cards (how surprising).

[phil80]

If your comment about France this last World Cup is true, then it stands to reason that Riquelme is every bit as influential based on what happened against Germany. He came off the pitch and Argentina lost all possession and the pk's were nothing more than a formality for Germany. France without Zidane is a better side than Argentina without Riquelme. Even Argentine Riquelme bashers know this.
Your statement falls flat with the fact that France was struggling to even qualify for the world cup. Go back and research it if you dont believe me. Zidane came out of retirement and carried a less superior team than Argentina's to the final.
One other note, you seem to have overblown Riquelme's performance in the world cup. He was far from exceptional, and Argentina's early stage results were more of a team contribution rather than a one man show. Copa America is another example where Riquelme (with a star studded Argentina lineup) failed against Brazil without its main stars.
To say Zidane was not the face of juve, madrid is understandable but to say he wasnt the face on France's team is delusional. If that is so then name who was the face of France during this world cup, this should be interesting to read.

[Volrath]

Didn't Riquelme make the most assists and had the best passing average in the last world cup? He was crucial for us when it came to holding possession and creating chances. Just look at the games against Holland and Germany to see the effect when he got taken off.

[jpick]

Didn't Riquelme make the most assists and had the best passing average in the last world cup? He was crucial for us when it came to holding possession and creating chances. Just look at the games against Holland and Germany to see the effect when he got taken off.

that is true, but you can say much of the same for totti. he had 3 assists and made the passes that led to the penalty and the pass that sprang gila free for the second semi goal. versus germany and ukraine his ability to spread play and help keep possession was vital. his introduction changed the course of the australia game (and of course he converted the last minute penalty) after 120 minutes on a bad leg, versus germany, he was spent and france kept him under wraps. even though italy won, it will go down as a mediocre tournament. people don't want to hear about high passing percentages, how his substitution hurt the team, how in riquelme's case, he had an epic qualifying game versus brazil, etc. they want to be able to quickly remember certain moments. in totti's case above, ask sombeody to remember the ukraine game and they might mention buffon diving head-first into the post or zambrotta's scorcher (if they even rememebr that game at all), and then the germany game, they remember pirlo's no-look pass to grosso and his bending shot, and del piero's curler to seal it, and if they are defensive connoisseurs, cannavaro's double clearance and steal that sets up the last goal (in italian it sticks out more as the announcer goes into a frenzy saying cannavaro twice in rapid succession). totti, well, most people will remember only a penalty from that world cup, and a controversial one at that.

it pains me, but that is the way it is. watching riquelme in the 2000 intercontinental cup or the aforementioned brazil qualifier among other games, and you see a true genius at work, but zidane did grasp his moments in the sun (at least a few of them), and that volley plus the double in paris versus the vaunted brazil really seal it in most people's eyes. everything else is for the apologists and revisionists to sort out.


I must say, though, anyone on the anti-zidane brigade really should thank their lucky stars that buffon saved that header. that goes in, no headbutt and france wins, as italy had no energy at that point to try and counter and equalize. an extra-time goal to seal the world cup, man, teso would have been apoplectic. :p

[Dr. Know]

it pains me, but that is the way it is. watching riquelme in the 2000 intercontinental cup or the aforementioned brazil qualifier among other games, and you see a true genius at work

You can add last year's Libertadores to that. Most people will discount it because it was South America but Riquelme put in some brilliant performances. He finished the tournament with 8 goals and 4 assists scoring in the quaterfinals, semi finals, and 3 goals in the final.

[phil80]

that is true, but you can say much of the same for totti. he had 3 assists and made the passes that led to the penalty and the pass that sprang gila free for the second semi goal. versus germany and ukraine his ability to spread play and help keep possession was vital. his introduction changed the course of the australia game (and of course he converted the last minute penalty) after 120 minutes on a bad leg, versus germany, he was spent and france kept him under wraps. even though italy won, it will go down as a mediocre tournament. people don't want to hear about high passing percentages, how his substitution hurt the team, how in riquelme's case, he had an epic qualifying game versus brazil, etc. they want to be able to quickly remember certain moments. in totti's case above, ask sombeody to remember the ukraine game and they might mention buffon diving head-first into the post or zambrotta's scorcher (if they even rememebr that game at all), and then the germany game, they remember pirlo's no-look pass to grosso and his bending shot, and del piero's curler to seal it, and if they are defensive connoisseurs, cannavaro's double clearance and steal that sets up the last goal (in italian it sticks out more as the announcer goes into a frenzy saying cannavaro twice in rapid succession). totti, well, most people will remember only a penalty from that world cup, and a controversial one at that.

it pains me, but that is the way it is. watching riquelme in the 2000 intercontinental cup or the aforementioned brazil qualifier among other games, and you see a true genius at work, but zidane did grasp his moments in the sun (at least a few of them), and that volley plus the double in paris versus the vaunted brazil really seal it in most people's eyes. everything else is for the apologists and revisionists to sort out.


I must say, though, anyone on the anti-zidane brigade really should thank their lucky stars that buffon saved that header. that goes in, no headbutt and france wins, as italy had no energy at that point to try and counter and equalize. an extra-time goal to seal the world cup, man, teso would have been apoplectic. :p
i dont think anyone's questioning riquelme's genius, but whether it stands up to Zidane's is another point. Watching Riquelme closely the whole tournament, i can tell you he was nothing spectacular and Zidanes performances had a greater impact, and i think most people would agree to that. Ofcourse Riquelme has had brilliant moments including during qualifiers and his influence on Boca, but in comparison to Zidanes it falls short IMO.

[phil80]

The ridiculous part is people trying to say zidane was a passenger for all his teams and was purely an aesthetic player.

[lanman]

Zidane came out of retirement and carried a less superior team than Argentina's to the final.

He had one excellent game, one good game and was downright awful for the rest. It hardly classes as carrying a team to the final. Although, given that many believe he carried the 98 France team it probably equates to that.

[lanman]

The ridiculous part is people trying to say zidane was a passenger for all his teams and was purely an aesthetic player.

He was rarely the most important player, but at the same time he certainly wasn't a passenger. Zidane was an excellent player, a joy to watch when on his game but sadly somewhat overrated by many.

[Hyuuga Neji]

Are you serious?
I don't see how any non Argentinian fan can say Riquelme.

[Iaquinta]

Riquelme for me. His club work has impressed me more than Zidane at Juve, and Real Madrid. Zidane was a great player but he gets a bit overated in general. I would also rank Totti ahead of him.

[Kufibear]

this has to be a joke
what has riquelme really done in his career?
im not a big zidane fan,but he carried france to the WC win in 98,was their best player again in 2000,and did very good at madrid,juve
riquelme to me is like a less talented pirlo
overrated

[jpick]

riquelme to me is like a less talented pirlo

I'm admittedly a card-carrying member of the pirlo fan club, and he and iniesta are two of my favorite midfielders, but riquelme has more natural talent than both imho.

riquelme even has more natural talent than zidane i'd say. just my opinion, though, and i don't want to pull this thread too far off track.