Zidane or Riquelme?

[phil80]

At the same time, you need to have a lot of quality to break into and play in a top team. "Carry" is an extreme word, it's not clear that having Zidane on the team was a deficiency. Zidane was considered one of Juventus' best players before winning the WC and was still one of the best CAMs of his generation. He may be overrated, but as with your argument for Gary Neville, this is a player who has been first choice for both an elite level country and elite level clubs for many years, and does deserve credit.

Also, disappearing in games is nothing new for the world's best players. What did Gerrard do in the CL final? Kaka was the invisible man there until Mascherano was taken off. In last year's CL final, Ronny had the Invisible Man role. Riquelme didn't play that well in CA 2007 final, along with Confederations Cup 2005 final. Where was Totti in the '06 final? I didn't see the 86 final, but from what I understand, Maradona was quite well marked there as well. The top players are quite likely to play poorly in big games because of the specialist marking they recieve from the opposing coaches.
Agree all players go through invisible periods, even when they're at their prime (ie Ronaldinho at wc2006, i cant remember one specific thing he did that entire world cup). Zidane, even during bad form, had something to contribute and is one of the few players that could constantly make his teammates look better. His aesthetic approach was just a bonus and not his main contribution. If you look at who players wanted the most in the CM role of all time, it was Zidane. It was part of the adidas +10 campaign where they interviewed some of the game's most famous players beckham, henry, ronaldo and if memory serves me correctly zidane was picked the most out of any player. Goes to show you that even players going up against him and ones that have played with him, know how vital he is for the team.

[bosterosoy]

but then again zidane has played with more of those 'stars' that voted and thus could be why he got more votes than say Riquelme

[Moishe]

Agree all players go through invisible periods, even when they're at their prime (ie Ronaldinho at wc2006, i cant remember one specific thing he did that entire world cup). Zidane, even during bad form, had something to contribute and is one of the few players that could constantly make his teammates look better. His aesthetic approach was just a bonus and not his main contribution. If you look at who players wanted the most in the CM role of all time, it was Zidane. It was part of the adidas +10 campaign where they interviewed some of the game's most famous players beckham, henry, ronaldo and if memory serves me correctly zidane was picked the most out of any player. Goes to show you that even players going up against him and ones that have played with him, know how vital he is for the team.

I asked the question a page or two back as to which player Zidane was able to enhance and make out to be a world beater. For Riquelme I took the obvious which was Diego Forlan. He wasn't a utter crap player but when he paired up with Riquelme he had his best years. Led La Liga in scoring one season with most of his goals coming off assists from Riquelme. To me those are the things show true greatness. That would be a great example of making a teammate look better. I've asked in the previous question I referenced, what player did Zidane truly make better? Del Piero? Raul? I will not discredit Zidane but I also wont put him on the pedestal others have.

[comme]

How on earth is this thread still going?

All these arguments have been rehashed again and again, but both sides go further to promote their idol and denigrate their opponent.

Simply put what marks Zidane out (just) from the other playmakers of his generation are two main points.

1. Major achievements with three different teams: Juve, Real Madrid and France.

2. Phenomenal grace on the ball.

Without doubt a number of players including Riquelme, Rui Costa, Totti and Rivaldo have performed at a level equivalent to or even surpassing Zidane at times.

Zidane though has the medals in his cabinet and can point at a number of issues.

a) At Euro 2000 he put in a performance above those of any of the other playmakers of his generation.

b) While he has faded in some finals (Euro 2000) he has come through dramatically in others (WC 1998, CL 2002).

c) His style of play will always endear him to those who appreciate the beauty of the game.

Ultimately Zidane clearly doesn't sit on the level of the Pele or Maradona, or IMO even of Platini, but he is on a different level to that of Riquelme, who still has time to make up for that.

Now Nice do everyone a favour and close this thread, it's about time for Teso to crash a different thread with the same old stuff.

[jpick]

yeah, good points, these arguments could go forever. lots of great players get marked at of big games, but zidane came through in some to give him credit, but granted he was in a lot more of them, too, given his clubs and country.

oh, why don't you ever come around the milan board like you used to, did calciopoli make you spurs only?
of course, i never thought i'd see the day where i would gladly trade spurs strike force for ours...:eek:.

[comme]

yeah, good points, these arguments could go forever. lots of great players get marked at of big games, but zidane came through in some to give him credit, but granted he was in a lot more of them, too, given his clubs and country.

oh, why don't you ever come around the milan board like you used to, did calciopoli make you spurs only?
of course, i never thought i'd see the day where i would gladly trade spurs strike force for ours...:eek:.

I'll swap Spurs' strike force for Milan's midfield! I've struggled to follow Serie A recently, as I don't know who are showing it in the UK now.

[lanman]

I've struggled to follow Serie A recently, as I don't know who are showing it in the UK now.

It's on Five on a Sunday.

[jpick]

I'll swap Spurs' strike force for Milan's midfield! :p
next thread, pirlo or carrick? (well, he's a former spur at least)

I've struggled to follow Serie A recently, as I don't know who are showing it in the UK now.

http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jun12i.html

this says channel 5 has it, but i don't know enough about uk tv to say if this is a standard channel or not.

serie a has been pretty good this season (granted it's two weeks in). looks to be more open for the scudetto and higher quality play from about the top 6 or 7. last season? ugghhh, awful in so many ways, you didn't miss much.

edit: yeah, what the post above said

[comme]

It's on Five on a Sunday.

Nice one. I'll keep an eye out for it.

[TKORL]

but then again zidane has played with more of those 'stars' that voted and thus could be why he got more votes than say Riquelme
That doesn't explain why Luis Figo, Ronaldo, and Raul didn't get that nomination. Raul's played with more stars than most of the world's best players.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Simply put what marks Zidane out (just) from the other playmakers of his generation are two main points.

1. Major achievements with three different teams: Juve, Real Madrid and France.

2. Phenomenal grace on the ball.

1. Irrelevant method of comparing players, as you well know.

2. Again, irrelevant. Aesthetics means little when comparing players subjectively.

[bosterosoy]

That doesn't explain why Luis Figo, Ronaldo, and Raul didn't get that nomination. Raul's played with more stars than most of the world's best players.

because Raul isn't that good

[TKORL]

because Raul isn't that good
Conversely that statement implies that Zidane is.

[TKORL]

1. Irrelevant method of comparing players, as you well know.

2. Again, irrelevant. Aesthetics means little when comparing players subjectively.
Then how do you compare players?

[comme]

1. Irrelevant method of comparing players, as you well know.

2. Again, irrelevant. Aesthetics means little when comparing players subjectively.

Let me put these points to one side for a moment and ask you a question, about a player that I believe you rate quite highly, Alfredo di Stefano.

What in your mind marks him out as an all-time great?

Tell me that, and then I will answer any points you have about Zidane.

[brassmonkey]

1. Irrelevant method of comparing players, as you well know.

2. Again, irrelevant. Aesthetics means little when comparing players subjectively.

What methods do you use when comparing players?

Statistics? Statistics often lie or don't tell large parts of the story, as anyone with common sense can tell you.

Based on your own viewing? How you percieve a player's contribution is as subjective as aesthetics.

[babaorum]

1. Irrelevant method of comparing players, as you well know.


Except that Zidane had a significant impact on his teams' results on several occasions (Bordeaux reaching the 1996 UEFA cup final, WC98, EC2000, CL2002, France qualifying for WC2006 and then reaching the final). You can argue that he also had some impact on Juve 97 and 98 scudetti and on Real Madrid 2003 title. In that case his achievements certainly mean something. It is certainly not the only criteria to state a player's greatness but it is not totally irrelevant in Zidane's case.

[brassmonkey]

So when Teso gets questioned, he runs away and hides. What a surprise.....

[aloisius]

When it comes to aesthetics, there’s no one I enjoy watching more than riquelme , and there’s no one else who’d be as much fun to play with.

That pass to messi against Venezuela(?) or that free kick to heinze v mexico(?) are just gorgeous plays that no one else can pull off.


Very sad that he doesn’t have a club at the moment.

What exactly did he do at villareal that the coach decided never to play him again?

[Koby7STAR]

does Riquelme really not have a club at the moment?