Zidane or Riquelme?

[Moishe]

Im not saying Riquelme is a bad player either, just Zidane was simply a superior footballer.

He's superior by virtue of what? He has got him with the World Cup and all no dispute to that but what players game did he truly elevate? All the great club sides he's played on would've done just fine without him. Sure he was instrumental on many occasions but again he always had great players around him and never had to take the likes of Forlan, Senna, Venta....and make them a CL semifinalist. I'm not trying to diss those particular players as they are solid profesionals but their not of the class of Zizous Juventus, Real.....teammates.

[TKORL]

At the same time, it does take a great deal of quality to break into and keep your place in the lineup of a big team.

[phil80]

He's superior by virtue of what? He has got him with the World Cup and all no dispute to that but what players game did he truly elevate? All the great club sides he's played on would've done just fine without him. Sure he was instrumental on many occasions but again he always had great players around him and never had to take the likes of Forlan, Senna, Venta....and make them a CL semifinalist. I'm not trying to diss those particular players as they are solid profesionals but their not of the class of Zizous Juventus, Real.....teammates.
Once again, Riquelme had an incredible Argentina team around him for both wc 2006 and this years copa america, arguably more talented than zidanes world cup team. In the wc, they barely scraped by mexico and couldnt make it past the quarter-finals. For copa america, they got thrashed by brazil, so riquelme has had his chances to lead with great teams. As tkorl pointed out, zidane still had to make his niche with these star studded teams, not only did he do that with ease practically every place he went, but he ended up leading the teams and orchestrating most of the attack.

[2bib]

zidane or riquelme ? LOOOOL
it reminds me of someone who compared rivaldo (yes, the guy who couldn't find a club else than olympiakos) to zidane
well, where to begin ? zidane was never rejected from a club (barca), he was never rejected from a NT (WC 2002) when supposedly great, he was never loaned to another club (and in a minor league), he was never sub in a team (barca, argentina most of his career)
to people who say zidane never brought a minor club to greatness, don't forget that he brought bordeaux from intertoto to final of the UEFA cup (final he couldn't play)
in the "ballon d'or" ranking, for the best season of his career, riquelme was 17th, zidane the same year (2005) for his worst was just behind (18th), in 2006 riquelme was not even ranked and zidane 5th (playing half year)
zidane won every major trophy you can win (league champion, WC, EC, CL, ballon d'or, fifa player of the year) in each of his teams (except for 2 CL finals with juventus), riquelme none (and for those who say he played only for villareal, don't forget he also played for barca and argentina)
for those who say riquelme brought villareal to a new level, villareal was 7th in 2005-2006 and 5th the next year (globally without riquelme)
do i have to continue ?

[arvin sloane]

You are making a fool of yourself.

[User Name]

He's superior by virtue of what? He has got him with the World Cup and all no dispute to that but what players game did he truly elevate? All the great club sides he's played on would've done just fine without him. Sure he was instrumental on many occasions but again he always had great players around him and never had to take the likes of Forlan, Senna, Venta....and make them a CL semifinalist. I'm not trying to diss those particular players as they are solid profesionals but their not of the class of Zizous Juventus, Real.....teammates.

Exactly, he played with the best teams in Europe and played with the best players in Europe and he was still the main man in those teams. Dont forget he did start somwhere, at Bordeaux which he took to a UEFA cup final. Which got him his move to Juventus.

And I cant see France winning Euro 2000 without Zidane.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Zidane was never the main man at any of his teams, including Bordeaux.

zidane or riquelme ? LOOOOL
it reminds me of someone who compared rivaldo (yes, the guy who couldn't find a club else than olympiakos) to zidane

Considering Rivaldo is clearly better than Zidane, I assumed the rest of your post was mindless drivel and chose to stop reading.

[Koby7STAR]

there wasn't much to read.

[arvin sloane]

Zidane was never the main man at any of his teams, including Bordeaux.

Yes, everyone is speaking about Zidane but no one remembers Dugarry's and Lizarazu's performances.

[brassmonkey]

Yes, everyone is speaking about Zidane but no one remembers Dugarry's and Lizarazu's performances.

I think anyone who watched the late nineties French team remembers their performances and appreciates their talents.

[arvin sloane]

I think anyone who watched the late nineties French team remembers their performances and appreciates their talents.

That's not exactly true for their performances at Bordeaux(particularly in Uefa Cup 1995/96) and previous 2bib's posts are proving this.

[brassmonkey]

That's not exactly true for their performances at Bordeaux(particularly in Uefa Cup 1995/96) and previous 2bib's posts are proving this.

2bib used the phrase "LOOOOL", don't take him seriously. He probably hasn't been watching football for more than a year or two.

[User Name]

Zidane was never the main man at any of his teams, including Bordeaux.

He was clearly the standout player in all of his teams. Although I agree he was never the main man at Madrid or Juventus as top level teams never rely on just one player for success. As Argentina have found to their cost with Riquelme.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Your post makes little sense as the first sentence continues your futile and incorrect belief that Zidane was the <insert your next superlative here> in all his teams but the start of the second sentence is an admission that I am correct. The truth is Zidane was never the <insert superlative> of any side, even his national side. He has been fortunate enough to play with great players who have carried him in the numerous games that he has disappeared in. Now you might wish to argue that he was aesthetically the best in x team and I have no problem with that claim but let's remain with the realms of reality when we are not discussing aesthetics.

[babaorum]

Your post makes little sense as the first sentence continues your futile and incorrect belief that Zidane was the <insert your next superlative here> in all his teams but the start of the second sentence is an admission that I am correct. The truth is Zidane was never the <insert superlative> of any side, even his national side. He has been fortunate enough to play with great players who have carried him in the numerous games that he has disappeared in. Now you might wish to argue that he was aesthetically the best in x team and I have no problem with that claim but let's remain with the realms of reality when we are not discussing aesthetics.

I agree to a certain extent that Zidane was not the main player in his clubs (except Bordeaux) but it is simply not true for France. Without Zidane France was nothing more than a very good defensive-minded team with few offensive inspiration (see WC2002 or France-Paraguay 1998). With a fit Zidane in the late 90's/early 00's and even in WC2006 after the group stage then France was something else - a truly great, complete team both in defense and in offense. When Zidane had a off-game as it indeed sometimes happened then France had an off-game too. When Zidane was good or great on the field -ie 80% of his games with France actually- then the whole team was also good or great. Sure he was fortunate enough to play with the likes of Deschamps, Thuram, Desailly etc. but he's the guy who often elevated the French national team level of play from 'very good' to 'great'.

[TKORL]

Your post makes little sense as the first sentence continues your futile and incorrect belief that Zidane was the <insert your next superlative here> in all his teams but the start of the second sentence is an admission that I am correct. The truth is Zidane was never the <insert superlative> of any side, even his national side. He has been fortunate enough to play with great players who have carried him in the numerous games that he has disappeared in. Now you might wish to argue that he was aesthetically the best in x team and I have no problem with that claim but let's remain with the realms of reality when we are not discussing aesthetics.
At the same time, you need to have a lot of quality to break into and play in a top team. "Carry" is an extreme word, it's not clear that having Zidane on the team was a deficiency. Zidane was considered one of Juventus' best players before winning the WC and was still one of the best CAMs of his generation. He may be overrated, but as with your argument for Gary Neville, this is a player who has been first choice for both an elite level country and elite level clubs for many years, and does deserve credit.

Also, disappearing in games is nothing new for the world's best players. What did Gerrard do in the CL final? Kaka was the invisible man there until Mascherano was taken off. In last year's CL final, Ronny had the Invisible Man role. Riquelme didn't play that well in CA 2007 final, along with Confederations Cup 2005 final. Where was Totti in the '06 final? I didn't see the 86 final, but from what I understand, Maradona was quite well marked there as well. The top players are quite likely to play poorly in big games because of the specialist marking they recieve from the opposing coaches.

[User Name]

Your post makes little sense as the first sentence continues your futile and incorrect belief that Zidane was the <insert your next superlative here> in all his teams but the start of the second sentence is an admission that I am correct. The truth is Zidane was never the <insert superlative> of any side, even his national side. He has been fortunate enough to play with great players who have carried him in the numerous games that he has disappeared in. Now you might wish to argue that he was aesthetically the best in x team and I have no problem with that claim but let's remain with the realms of reality when we are not discussing aesthetics.

Zidane was the best player in all the teams he played for, he clearly stood out as being an integral and crucial part of both Juve and Madrid and as such was their most important player. But that does not mean he 'carried' Juve and Madrid like Riquelme 'carried' Villareal. Teams like Juve and Madrid are never 'carried' by one player. That is what I meant.

[TKORL]

If the main argument for Riquelme is that he was able to carry Villareal, then really Deco is the better example of a playmaker who could do the same.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Zidane was the best player in all the teams he played for, he clearly stood out as being an integral and crucial part of both Juve and Madrid and as such was their most important player. But that does not mean he 'carried' Juve and Madrid like Riquelme 'carried' Villareal. Teams like Juve and Madrid are never 'carried' by one player. That is what I meant.

He clearly was not, a fundamental point you have consistently failed to grasp.

[Spartak]

He clearly was not, a fundamental point you have consistently failed to grasp.
True. Zidane was a good player at Juve but he was never the best nor most important player. Del Piero was vastly more instrumental for Juve's success during those years. And Zidane rarely showed world class ability in the big matches in the CL or Serie A. Any Juve fan will tell you the same. At Real he was just one of many superstars and he really didn't separate himself from Raul, Ronaldo, Figo, etc. Zidane gets his good rep from his performances with France, which are also overrated. If you compare Zidane's performances at Juve/Real with similar players during his era: Rivaldo with Barca, Totti with Roma, or Rui Costa with Fiorentina. It's clear that he never reached the level with his clubs that those players did. He did have great ability but he never showed it as consistently as the top players did.