Zidane or Riquelme?

[phil80]

Really? yay for vague assertions.


This video contains a few flicks and tricks, one incisive pass, and another pass to use width. I remember this game, I admit he played well, but no better than a good Riquelme game.


I will grant you that Zidane killed it. So chalk one up for Zidane.




The only player making things happen? Really? And yet I don't remember anything happening at all. That's the point. France started playing well once it's considerably talented XI woke up against Togo. It was a team effort of many top players, not Zidane wowing us with his brilliance. Zidane played ok in his first two games, "killed off" the third, did nothing of note against in the fourth Portugal, and again, did nothing in the final.

Zidane isn't much older than Makelele or Thuram.
That vid link from UserName is so much more than a few flicks and tricks. Zidane completely dominated that game, in his thirties, against an all star world favorite brazil team. That isnt a game you can say "no better than a good Riquelme game". Did Riquelme do the same in the copa america final, against a brazil team without its two best players (many calling them brazil's b team)? No, the "riquelme-led" argentina got trounced 3-0

[Volrath]

That vid link from UserName is so much more than a few flicks and tricks. Zidane completely dominated that game, in his thirties, against an all star world favorite brazil team. That isnt a game you can say "no better than a good Riquelme game". Did Riquelme do the same in the copa america final, against a brazil team without its two best players (many calling them brazil's b team)? No, the "riquelme-led" argentina got trounced 3-0
Brazil gave Zidane all the space he wanted in that quarter, they didn't cover him nor did they try to foul him. Ask any Brazil fan about that match, they'll say that it was one of the worst performances that they have ever seen from their national team.

Ignoring the fact that the entire Argentina squad was having an off day that final, what did Brazil do against Riquelme in the Copa America? They kept fouling him, kicking him over and covering him all game long. And surprise surprise Riquelme was still able to hit the post and put in a cracker of a shot that took Doni one hell of a save. So he still was Argentina's main threat while being under that amount of pressure.

[phil80]

Unless you're implying the game was fixed, it makes no sense to 'not cover or not foul' the opposition's best player. brazil did play poorly, but credit also goes to zidane for finding the holes and spaces during that game.
With all good players, teams hack and kick them to throw them off their game, but the great ones still find a way to produce and perform well. Riquelme didnt, and though you cant judge a player on one game, it was a comparison to show how both players did against brazil since TKORL downplayed zidanes performance that match.

[Volrath]

Unless you're implying the game was fixed, it makes no sense to 'not cover or not foul' the opposition's best player. brazil did play poorly, but credit also goes to zidane for finding the holes and spaces during that game.
With all good players, teams hack and kick them to throw them off their game, but the great ones still find a way to produce and perform well. Riquelme didnt, and though you cant judge a player on one game, it was a comparison to show how both players did against brazil since TKORL downplayed zidanes performance that match.
I'm not implying anything, I'm only stating that Brazil didn't cover Zidane because they were hilariously bad that game in all departments.
And I'm stating that Riquelme did produce an attacking threat in the Copa final against that amount of pressure.

And are you claiming that Zidane performed under pressure in that world cup? Where was he the first half against Spain when they covered him? Nonexistant, the entire game against Portugal? Nonexistant. The entire game against Italy? Nonexistant apart from the penalty and the headbutt that is.

[Moishe]

Entertaining is a matter of taste, however his argument was that talent in S.America is at least equal to that in Europe, which was the point I was refuting.

In regards to his argument about S. American talent being at least equal to that in Europe, at the very least the talent coming up in S. America is ahead of that in most of Europe. It would be hard to argue that the majority of players in Europe are as technically sound as those in S.America. As much as this is an opinion, I've seen the same comment posted on here as well as read and heard it in the press.

Truth is that European futbol benefits from the money that is more abundant there than in South America. Factor in that FIFA is based in Europe and voila you have a bias. Let's say for arguments sake that the money in futbol today was spread evenly around the continents do you honestly think that Europe would still be the pinnacle? Remove the Argentine, Brazilian and African players and do really think European futbol would be as good?

[Moishe]

Unless you're implying the game was fixed, it makes no sense to 'not cover or not foul' the opposition's best player. brazil did play poorly, but credit also goes to zidane for finding the holes and spaces during that game.
With all good players, teams hack and kick them to throw them off their game, but the great ones still find a way to produce and perform well. Riquelme didnt, and though you cant judge a player on one game, it was a comparison to show how both players did against brazil since TKORL downplayed zidanes performance that match.

If matches against Brazil is going to be a barometer, then you can use the WCQ in Buenos Aires in which Roman was absolutely brilliant and not just the match in which while being hacked to death still managed to put two excellent shots on goal. Also how did you interpret that he was implying the match was fixed?:confused:

[bosterosoy]

South American teams might win knock of games like the toyata cup or whatever that crap is called nowadays but then MLS All stars beat Chelsea.

this is more of that continued bullsh*t that you can't actually think is true.

also, to add to the list of reasons that go against the statement that 'European clubs don't care', how about this: Ancelotti, Kaka, Seedorf and Pirlo have all said that they want to avenge their 2003 loss to Boca Juniors in this upcoming addition??

Yes they def don't care :rolleyes:

The only way to judge is on player rosters and in that respect top European teams are the pinnacle of world football.

If this were truely the case, then we might at as well never play a single football match. They can all be decided on paper. Heart, playing as a team, 'huevos' has nothing to do with the game, it's all about talent :rolleyes:

If it was how you claim it to be, then how come Korea beat Italy in 1966 1-0?? Surely Italy should have won because on paper they were better. How could T & T have beaten Sweden id Sweden had a better 'player roster'. How could Brasil have not won the WC if they had such a great roster.

To say a team is better because they have more stars or a 'better team on paper' is utter stupidity. We all know that games are played on the field, and in that regard Boca Juniors have been (in this century) consistently in the top 5 teams in the world. They've beaten all those great South American teams who had players that you now call 'stars' and the best in the world, they beat Real Madrid 2-1, the same Real Madrid that was 'one of the best teams of all time' and they beat AC Milan who won the CL and next year won the Serie A.

[Moishe]

First of all I don't dispute any of the qualities of Zidane but if he was that great at lifting his teams, why weren't the Galacticos more succesful than they were? Surely Zizou with Figo, Carlos, Raul.....would have won every trophy in the world but yet they managed what one cup in that run? I certainly thought they'd win more.

[phil80]

I'm not implying anything, I'm only stating that Brazil didn't cover Zidane because they were hilariously bad that game in all departments.
And I'm stating that Riquelme did produce an attacking threat in the Copa final against that amount of pressure.

And are you claiming that Zidane performed under pressure in that world cup? Where was he the first half against Spain when they covered him? Nonexistant, the entire game against Portugal? Nonexistant. The entire game against Italy? Nonexistant apart from the penalty and the headbutt that is.
I didnt remember anything special about his performance in the copa final. Plus if you're going to talk about zidanes world cup, then who had a bettter one zidane or riquelme? Even most Argentinians would think this is a no brainer, especially with all the grief Riquelme and his mom received afterwards.

[brassmonkey]

let me ask you something.
why is it hard for you to believe that Boca Juniors in 2000 isn't better, or at least as good as Real madrid was??

That is just a colosally stupid statement, something that could only be uttered by a truly ignorant, misinformed, and deeply disturbed individual.

Every team loses or draws at some point, that doesn't mean the team they lose to is better.

[bosterosoy]

I didnt remember anything special about his performance in the copa final. Plus if you're going to talk about zidanes world cup, then who had a bettter one zidane or riquelme? Even most Argentinians would think this is a no brainer, especially with all the grief Riquelme and his mom received afterwards.

He took all that grief because in ARgentina you are either a boca fan or an anti-boca fan. So, more than half the population are anti boca fans.

Riquelme led the World Cup in assists (meaning he had more then Zidane) and i can only imagine what he would have done if his team had gone further.

Also, Riquelme left the pitch against Germany with his team up 1-0 (assisting the goal) and only after he left did the team lose the game (mainly because Pato chickened out:mad::mad:)

Riquelme was tightly marked by one or 2 players against Brasil in the Copa America and despite all that, he was the only player on the team creating the chances. Not Messi, not Tevez, not Veron, not Aimar, but Riquelme. He had one that hit the post, and another one that somehow Doni managed to save on a spectacular dive.

If you want to talk about Brasil games, look at the game mentioned above when Riquelme had the ball passed to him, he flicked backwards with the back of his heel right in from of Ronaldinho (just to show him who's better lol ;)) and then got the ball back and slammed it past Dida (hey that goal was even better than the Zidane one mentioned above)

He led Villareal to the semifinals of the CL, that is def more amazing than what Zidane did in the WC 98.

This past year Riquelme won the Copa Libertadores in the best individual performance I have seen in a long, long time.

You talk about how Riquelme missed the pk against ARsenal and how that means that he doesn't come up under pressure. Ok, well then I guess I'll just say the same thing about Zidane since he cost his team the WC in 2006 by deciding to headbutt someone

[bosterosoy]

That is just a colosally stupid statement, something that could only be uttered by a truly ignorant, misinformed, and deeply disturbed individual.

Every team loses or draws at some point, that doesn't mean the team they lose to is better.

no, the misinformed one is you who thinks that just because the team plays in Europe that they are naturally better than a south american club.

Boca Juniors 2000 was one of the best teams that I've seen play in my life time. The fact that you only watch European footie and decide to believe the biased that Europeans have toward their clubs and not look into it yourself. Have you even seen any Boca Juniros game? Why don't you go watch the 2000 game between Real Madrid and Boca Juniors and then come back and debate about it, instead of just talking without knowing ;)

If nobody good is playing in South America (as you somehow seem to believe) then why is it that European clubs continue to come and buy our players?

[phil80]

Zidane was constantly marked by one or two players and performed well. Going on stats is a terrible way to judge players, so saying riquelme had more assists does not mean he was the better player, if you want to go on stats then zidane not only had more goals but WON the GOLDEN BALL award. But this is irrelevant, the fact is zidane outplayed riquelme during the wc as he did throughout his career, and to say it was only boca haters that led to his criticism in Argentina is misleading.

[TKORL]

In regards to his argument about S. American talent being at least equal to that in Europe, at the very least the talent coming up in S. America is ahead of that in most of Europe.

Truth is that European futbol benefits from the money that is more abundant there than in South America. Factor in that FIFA is based in Europe and voila you have a bias. Let's say for arguments sake that the money in futbol today was spread evenly around the continents do you honestly think that Europe would still be the pinnacle? Remove the Argentine, Brazilian and African players and do really think European futbol would be as good?

Correct, European football is superior probably only because of the money and higher standard of living for players. However, the end result is that almost all top players from over the world will go to Europe in order to earn more, (Just consider that Rodrigo Palacio is the highest earner with $1 mil a year, whereas a regular at a top club earns about twice as much), still that the top European clubs have the choice to pick between the best European, South American, and African talent available which IMO leaves South America with players who either have not fully emerged or those who are past their prime.

It is also correct that S. America is a factory for talent, but that's different from saying that the best in S. America = best European teams.

However, where this may fall flat is when you venture outside of the very elite of European clubs and into the midlevel to lower level first division European teams.

[TKORL]

That vid link from UserName is so much more than a few flicks and tricks. Zidane completely dominated that game, in his thirties, against an all star world favorite brazil team. That isnt a game you can say "no better than a good Riquelme game". Did Riquelme do the same in the copa america final, against a brazil team without its two best players (many calling them brazil's b team)? No, the "riquelme-led" argentina got trounced 3-0
I ask you again, what the hell did Zidane do in the final that merits labeling him as a "big game" player?





Now of course, I like Zidane, and I think he was one of the top CAMs of his generation, but the superlatives used to describe him are really silly.

[bosterosoy]

Correct, European football is superior probably only because of the money and higher standard of living for players. However, the end result is that almost all top players from over the world will go to Europe in order to earn more, (Just consider that Rodrigo Palacio is the highest earner with $1 mil a year, whereas a regular at a top club earns about twice as much), still that the top European clubs have the choice to pick between the best European, South American, and African talent available which IMO leaves South America with players who either have not fully emerged or those who are past their prime.

It is also correct that S. America is a factory for talent, but that's different from saying that the best in S. America = best European teams.

However, where this may fall flat is when you venture outside of the very elite of European clubs and into the midlevel to lower level first division European teams.

the top teams in South America are on par with those of Europe

[TKORL]

So you think Boca Juniors would place in the top 4 of the EPL, Liga, and Serie A?

[bosterosoy]

So you think Boca Juniors would place in the top 4 of the EPL, Liga, and Serie A?

no doubt in my mind
Sao Paolo could too

[bosterosoy]

So you think Boca Juniors would place in the top 4 of the EPL, Liga, and Serie A?

So you think that Boca Juniors or Sao Paolo aren't in the top 12 clubs in the world?

[lanman]

Even an over the hill, old, physically and mentally exausted Zidane was still the only player making things happen in those drudgy games.

He was a complete and utter liability in those first group games and contributed about as much as the third choice keeper.