Work Permits

[AvidSinger]

I read a rumor on CNN that the British government is considering relaxing the standards on work permits in all leagues in the UK. Seems they're considering changing the rules so that instead of having to apply for a work permit (which so few people are able to get), teams will be limited to three non-European players on contract.

Anybody hear anything about this? This could be great news for lower division clubs.

[Matt Clark]

The non-EU restriction no longer applies anyway. We can have as many non-EU players as we wish. As long as they qualify for a work permit.

So the two are not really related.

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
The non-EU restriction no longer applies anyway. We can have as many non-EU players as we wish. As long as they qualify for a work permit.

So the two are not really related. Well, if I understood correctly, that's what they're going to change. Non-EU players will no longer be required to qualify for work permits if the gov't does what I heard they're planning to.

IMO, this would greatly benefit the lower divisions who simply can't compete for international players because the players that CAN get work permits are simply out of the team's league.

And I can't deny that the USA could get something out of it, since more of our players will likely end up playing in the UK.

[Matt Clark]

The notion that lower division clubs could get internationals that the now cannotis incorrect. If you play 75% of your nation's international matches in any given year, you qualify for a work permit. So whether you are the first-choice striker for Brazil or for Montserrat, as long as you qualify on that basis, you're in. So lower division clubs can already sign whatever internationals would be willing to join them.

If, by "international" you mean 'foreigner', then there's this: if he is not in his national team, then how good is he? If he is very good (say, an as yet uncapped Brazilian) then he will not sign for Rotherham United in any case. If he is bobbins (say, an as yet uncapped Singaporean) then what benefit does his availability bring the lower division club?

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
If, by "international" you mean 'foreigner', then there's this: if he is not in his national team, then how good is he? If he is very good (say, an as yet uncapped Brazilian) then he will not sign for Rotherham United in any case. If he is bobbins (say, an as yet uncapped Singaporean) then what benefit does his availability bring the lower division club? Sorry, yes I meant "foreigner" and not just "international."

But if you're on a Div 2 or 3 team, a Brazilian who isn't anywhere near good enough to make his national team could still be plenty good enough for your club. Also, lower divison clubs would then be able to shop in such places as the USA, Asia, or Africa where you could not only find players suitable for your team, but you might just get them a lot cheaper, too.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
The notion that lower division clubs could get internationals that the now cannotis incorrect. If you play 75% of your nation's international matches in any given year, you qualify for a work permit. So whether you are the first-choice striker for Brazil or for Montserrat, as long as you qualify on that basis, you're in. So lower division clubs can already sign whatever internationals would be willing to join them.

It's not just 75% of your nation's matches -- your nation must also be ranked at least 70th over the last 2 years. So Montserrat's top striker would not get in just by playing all their games.

Originally posted by Matt Clark
If, by "international" you mean 'foreigner', then there's this: if he is not in his national team, then how good is he? If he is very good (say, an as yet uncapped Brazilian) then he will not sign for Rotherham United in any case. If he is bobbins (say, an as yet uncapped Singaporean) then what benefit does his availability bring the lower division club?
I think the point that these guys are making is that there are some very good players who are at the fringes of their national teams who could play in some of the lower divisions. Some of them may be up and comers who haven't gotten the caps at the full national level and some may be legitimate top flight players who are stuck behind one or two who are at the top of their game.

Bocanegra, Martino, Convey and a few others are examples of the first category. They could play D1 or D2 where they'd probably make more money than in the MLS, play more games than the MLS does, possibly play against stronger competition, certainly play against more diverse competition.

Tim Howard would be a case of the latter where it's going to be quite awhile before he can displace both Friedel and Keller to start getting caps but he could definitely play in D1 and ManU thinks he can play in EPL.

[sendorange]

I'd be surprised if this happens or is true.

I suppose it is feasible, as most other EU countries (i.e. Spain, Italy etc..) have much more relaxed Work Permit regulations. I guess the lower division clubs will be keen, more players to choose from for them, and the three player limit would keep the FA and PFA happy.

I'd be suprised to see any MLS fans keen on this, because if our clubs are plundering your best players whenever they show any talent, what's your league going to look like? You'd be like Ireland, or Scotland without Rangers and Celtic.

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by sendorange
I'd be suprised to see any MLS fans keen on this, because if our clubs are plundering your best players whenever they show any talent, what's your league going to look like? You'd be like Ireland, or Scotland without Rangers and Celtic. Actually, I think it could help MLS grow. Money we get from selling players could be pumped back into youth development. It would hurt MLS talent pool early on, sure, but in the long run I think it could really be beneficial.

[sendorange]

That's the thing, clubs won't spend transfer money on buying US players. The clubs in the lower division rarely have any money, and when they do they want to spend it on proven quality in their own league, not on overseas players. For Premiership clubs, they'll move for African and South American players in a very big way, plus most clubs will have at least one Asian player. Alongside these people and the usual European players, and English players, doesn't leave much room for US players. Except the odd goalkeeper ;)

The US outfield players signed will be mainly out of contract (to Division 1 or 2 teams), or occasional young players (to Premiership teams). Though to be honest I don't think many will go, the talent pool in the US just isn't there to be exploited.

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by sendorange
That's the thing, clubs won't spend transfer money on buying US players.I'm not so sure, since MLS players still have a fairly low market value comparatively. Some clubs might just see MLS players as the bargain they're looking for.

I'm not saying there would be a giant vacuum cleaner effect or anything, but if MLS could sell two or three players a year for, say, $50-$100 thousand apiece, that money could be used to build up teams' youth programs.

[superdave]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
If, by "international" you mean 'foreigner', then there's this: if he is not in his national team, then how good is he?
Looking at this from an MLS/US perspective (as well as a recovering Championship Manager addict ;)), I think you're missing a big part of the equation. MLS is chock full of young players who would never qualify for a WP, but could help a Div 2 get promoted or Div 1 team avoid relegation NOW. And in a few years, such players will be alot better, and be capable of helping a club take the next step.

Take Bobby Convey...Newcastle (alot bigger club than I was talking about before, I know) has been interested in him for a couple of years. But he can't get a WP. Without that, they probably would have tried to buy him from MLS in 2001, with the idea of grooming him for the future. Or look at a non-American like Ezra Hendrickson...not a great player, but could help alot of Div. 1 type teams as an attacking fullback. He can't get a WP because he's from St. Vincent/the Grenadines (or somesuch Caribbean flyspeck nation.) Yeah, Ezra's not young now, but he used to be. When the time comes for all of the exciting rookies we've seen from the last two seasons to sign contract extensions, when MLS plops a $50K with 10% raise per year contracts in front of them, their agents are gonna be calling up Crewe Alexandria in a New York minute.

MLS' salary cap has caused the league to be "flat" in terms of age distribution, rather than a bell curve. As players reach their mid to late 20's they expect more pay. But often these players are only 20% better than a good rookie, but the rookie wants only half the money. So the team signs the rookie and lets the veteran go, or forces the veteran to play for less than he's worth. Guys in the Carey Talley-Dante Washington class would love this change. Even with the new financial realities in the lower divisions, Talley could hook up with a midtable Div. 2 team and make more money.

NOTE: I don't know Talley's specific salary, but there are alot of reasonably good MLSers making $60,000 a year; that translates to less than 1,000 pounds a week.

[Matt Clark]

Fair perspective ... but as you say – very much one focused on the potential benefit to the MLS, no? English clubs can get good, cheap players from within the UK and Europe. Unless the argument becomes entirely qualitative (non-WP MLS player is more often likely to be better than existing Div 1 or 2 talent to a sufficiently large degree that all resettlement and acclimatisation issues are moot), then there is little or nothing to commend the idea to the English game.

Turn that on it’s head and what you actually have is exciting young talent in the MLS who could play a major role in that league’s growth in stature being snaffled by English clubs to whom their currently weekly wage is the sort of thing a 16-year old trainee earns on this side of the pond. The player earns more, but disappears into the English Reserve League, the MLS loses a promising player for an insultingly small amount of money.

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
Fair perspective ... but as you say – very much one focused on the potential benefit to the MLS, no?Well, you can hardly blame us for wanting our own league to improve, no?

English clubs can get good, cheap players from within the UK and Europe. Unless the argument becomes entirely qualitative (non-WP MLS player is more often likely to be better than existing Div 1 or 2 talent to a sufficiently large degree that all resettlement and acclimatisation issues are moot), then there is little or nothing to commend the idea to the English game.Well, I really don't see any English teams being opposed to the idea of being able to widen their talent searches. And it isn't just MLS we're talking about -- I'm sure there are plenty of players in Africa, Asia, and South America that would fall in the same boat.

[Matt Clark]

Originally posted by AvidSinger
Well, you can hardly blame us for wanting our own league to improve, no?

Of course not, although as I said in the second half of that post, you could equally view such a situation as being detrimental to MLS interests.

Originally posted by AvidSinger
Well, I really don't see any English teams being opposed to the idea of being able to widen their talent searches. And it isn't just MLS we're talking about -- I'm sure there are plenty of players in Africa, Asia, and South America that would fall in the same boat.

Fair enough, but premise has to be "why are we doing this ? Does it help English clubs? If so, how?"

I don't think all that strong a case can be made in favour of any of those factors.

[superdave]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
Fair perspective ... but as you say – very much one focused on the potential benefit to the MLS, no?
I don't see it as a benefit to MLS...the league has seen a clear upgrade in the caliber of internationals signing with the league the last 2 years, while actually paying them the same or less, because of the loss of TV money throughout Europe. That trend would be reversed, at the same time the domestic talent will likely drop.

Unless the argument becomes entirely qualitative (non-WP MLS player is more often likely to be better than existing Div 1 or 2 talent to a sufficiently large degree that all resettlement and acclimatisation issues are moot), then there is little or nothing to commend the idea to the English game.

That's my point...having seen the Div. 1 playoffs recently, MLS is chock full of players who have got to be upgrades for the teams battling to stay in Div. 1 or make it out of Div. 2. And MLS can compete financially with such clubs. Not in all cases, anyway.

There's another factor...MLS has become a key league for the whole region, in terms of developing players. The money and stakes in Mexico are high enough that they won't dip deep into the talent pool like MLS will, and MLS' teeny tiny rosters mean that if you're on the team, you'll get to play. If the new rules pass, players like Jamaican Damani Ralph or (I think Jamaican) Shalrie Joseph would be tough to sign. They might end up in Darlington, or with QPR. Look at Onandi Lowe...he was a mediocre MLS player. If he had a good attitude, he'd be worth having on your team. He doesn't, tho, he's lazy and inconsistent, so now he's with R&D. And probably making as much or more there as he was in MLS.

I don't see this as a plus for MLS. I do see it as a plus for intelligent, farsighted, ambitious D2 clubs, and for the smaller CONCACAF nations.

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
Of course not, although as I said in the second half of that post, you could equally view such a situation as being detrimental to MLS interests.Could be, could be. It would depend on what happens to the market, really, but I wouldn't foresee the result as being quite as grim as you made it out to be.

After all, MLS thus far is losing a miulitimillion dollar deal to Man U because of a Work Permit issue....



Fair enough, but premise has to be "why are we doing this ? Does it help English clubs? If so, how?"

I don't think all that strong a case can be made in favour of any of those factors. Well, I don't know English law, but again I'd say that small clubs would not be the least bit opposed to being able to widen their nets. Given the financial chaos created by the collapsed TV deal, I think they really could benefit from being able to bring in players perhaps more willing to work on the cheap.

[Matt Clark]

That's my point...having seen the Div. 1 playoffs recently, MLS is chock full of players who have got to be upgrades for the teams battling to stay in Div. 1 or make it out of Div. 2.

Hmmm … possibly. I know that there are some internationals in Div 1 and 2 (the Nigerian lad at Crewe, the Canadian at Tranmere) but whether they benefit their clubs, or the places they originate from by being there is hard to say. I don’t doubt that there are US players in the MLS who could cut it in Div 1 or 2, above and beyond those we already know about (who, as you said earlier, tend to attract attention further up the chain in any case). But whether they are, on balance, a better proposition to a Div 1 club than a British player, or a foreigner already established in the league is uncertain – and not in any way related to the Home Office rules on working in the UK.

And MLS can compete financially with such clubs. Not in all cases, anyway.

In actual fact, it would not be hard to argue that MLS is considerably better run financially than anything uyp to 75% of Nationwide clubs.

There's another factor...MLS has become a key league for the whole region, in terms of developing players. The money and stakes in Mexico are high enough that they won't dip deep into the talent pool like MLS will, and MLS' teeny tiny rosters mean that if you're on the team, you'll get to play.

Is that not then another argument in support of my view that the change we’re discussing could actually be detrimental to MLS? I mean, never mind what Div 2 clubs could gain from it. They’re talent pool is large enough as it is, with the whole of Britain and the (soon-to-be) 25 nation EU pool.

[Matt Clark]

Could be, could be. It would depend on what happens to the market, really, but I wouldn't foresee the result as being quite as grim as you made it out to be.
Well OK, quite possibly not. I wasn’t actually aware of painting a “grim” picture (I must be more miserable than I realise :) ), It’s all just speculation at the end of the day in any case.

After all, MLS thus far is losing a miulitimillion dollar deal to Man U because of a Work Permit issue....

I don’t follow. What’s this about – Tim Howard? Is he not signing after all because of the permit laws? Not heard anything about it.

Well, I don't know English law, but again I'd say that small clubs would not be the least bit opposed to being able to widen their nets. Given the financial chaos created by the collapsed TV deal, I think they really could benefit from being able to bring in players perhaps more willing to work on the cheap.

As I said in my previous post, whilst there is of course nothing in theory that should provoke resistance from Nationwide clubs, it equally does not equate to something they would be actively pursuing (the law change to enable a wider pool, that is).On balance, it makes no great odds to them.

As to your final point, I happen to believe that we should not encourage systems where clubs are able to exploit cheaper markets abroad to both the detriment of the players bought and the local players ignored on that basis. The only person who benefits there is the club chairman and the various investorts. And we’ve had quite enough of that, thank you very much.

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
I don’t follow. What’s this about – Tim Howard? Is he not signing after all because of the permit laws? Not heard anything about it.Sort of.

They probably will not give him a work permit because, strictly speaking, he has not played in 75% of US matches in the last two years. He is, however, applying for a Hungarian passport, but that won't go through until January at the earliest, so he likely won't go to England until then.

And we all know what often happens to transfers that get delayed too much...

As I said in my previous post, whilst there is of course nothing in theory that should provoke resistance from Nationwide clubs, it equally does not equate to something they would be actively pursuing (the law change to enable a wider pool, that is).On balance, it makes no great odds to them.Again, I know nothing of British law, so I don't really know what the pros and cons are.

As to your final point, I happen to believe that we should not encourage systems where clubs are able to exploit cheaper markets abroad to both the detriment of the players bought and the local players ignored on that basis. The only person who benefits there is the club chairman and the various investorts. And we’ve had quite enough of that, thank you very much. Well, I can't argue with that... Suffice it to say the clubs got seriously screwed by the TV deal, so a lot of them are scrambling...

[AvidSinger]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
Well OK, quite possibly not. I wasn’t actually aware of painting a “grim” picture (I must be more miserable than I realise :) ), It’s all just speculation at the end of the day in any case.Well, by "grim" I was referring to your point about young MLS players getting lost in the reserves in England while the league made little money from the deal...

This probably would happen, but I'd also think that there would likely be a few deals in the $100k range, too. If that kind of money was spent toward assisting clubs in their youth development programs, the long-term benefits could outweigh the short-term drawbacks.

This is really the angle I've been taking all along -- If MLS can get another way of making income, then reinvesting that money into developing young players, then MLS benefits from a larger talent pool, the USMNT benefits, the MLS benefits again because of the increased exposure resulting from the USMNT's improvement, and the players benefit by being able to maximize their own potential.