The Erpen-for-Vanney Trade

[Bootsy Collins]

@KC, @Hou, vDal. Awful, mediocre at best, awful.

How many matches are necessary before there's enough of a baseline to evaluate the trade?

[Sundevil9]

@KC, @Hou, vDal. Awful, mediocre at best, awful.

How many matches are necessary before there's enough of a baseline to evaluate the trade?

I'm skeptical, but I'm not as willing to throw stones at it this early.

Three games, sure.

But this is the second game with Boswell, who the team expects to be his defensive partner. The Open Cup game midweek interrupted any preparations for this game. Also, I think it takes more than a few games for players, especially in such critical roles to jell.

Really, if you want to label the trade as a 'bust' you'd have a good idea in early to mid August.

[DCSharksFC]

we are still paying for erpfu, and the crapids are paying for vanney, we have salary space

thats the only positive so far, but i have not been impressed at all with vanney especially the kc game where he was being beaten at will

[BBBulldog]

The Open Cup game midweek interrupted any preparations for this game.

it did? I'm not sure team even knew we were in open cup. But I guess giving up chance for trophy was worth getting a point vs Dallas :D

[Bootsy Collins]

The Open Cup game midweek interrupted any preparations for this game.
How do you figure that?

[CHICO13]

4 in the back and we give up 3? The math's off if you ask me...

[Grasscutter]

@KC, @Hou, vDal. Awful, mediocre at best, awful.

How many matches are necessary before there's enough of a baseline to evaluate the trade?

The play, some time after our first goal (15th minute?), when Oduro pretty much just walked up to Vanney, just outside our box, and stole the ball for a solo run on goal, is the single worst defensive play I can recall by a United defender this year. It easily could have been 1-1 right there.

What's depressing is that he's not supposed to have Erpen's flair, or even pace (which ain't much), but he is supposed to be steady. He's making rookie mistakes.

I'd like to see Boswell and McTavish in the middle as soon as Namoff is healthy, and if that's next week, I'd put Vanney on the bench.

[highlander]

I appreciated the logic of them deciding they didn't want to make Erpen a senior international. I get that. I just can't understand, regardless of what they say, what made them think that Vanney was going to be an upgrade. Forget the three games - look at Vanney ever since he came back from France. Just because Vanney would have been an upgrade once, doesn't mean that he is an upgrade now. DC's front office have a history of making smart personel moves and trades, but this is one that I just don't get unless...

Perhaps Soehn just decided that he didn't like Erpen's approach to defense? Vanney may not be an upgrade, but he may be the type of player that Soehn is more comfortable with. Erpen's style of play is not conventional for a defender. I can see where it would make a first year head coach very uncomfortable - even to the point that he would ship him out for someone that he thought might even be close to as effective.

This isn't a typical DC United trade. The only thing that I can think of is that Soehn gave up on Erpen and there was no point in keeping him around if he was going to be gone after this year anyway.

[elprincipe]

I think we have to reserve final judgment because you can hardly label the trade a bad one after a mere three matches. That said, I think so far we have not had any of the supposed improvement at this position now with Vanney, and I would say we've had worse performances. Combined with the ages and potential of the two players, all I can say is I sure hope Vanney improves quite a bit after more in-game experience with his new teammates.

[jason1551]

So after less than ten days, we're supposed to be able to evaluate this trade despite the fact that:

1) Boswell and Vanney have played only two games together and that one of those games was only days after Boswell got back from the Copa America.
2) Their training this week was interrupted by the Open Cup game, which actually would have been a good opportunity for them to get more in sync or at least work out communication.
3) We have yet to see how Namoff will gel with this new line-up, which is a pretty big thing considering MacTavish has worked himself into a starter-capable defender in his absence and may necessitate moving some players around.
4) We've played 4 games in less than ten days. Our guys are bound to have had some degree of fatigue set in.

Sundevil9 is right. We won't be able to judge the value of this trade until everyone has had some time to play together regularly. A week and a half is far too short a time to evaluate a trade that still has all sorts of kinks to be worked out.

[sitruc]

As much as I haven't liked Vanney's play on the field, it is too early to tell. I'd rather have Erpen out there, but I'm assuming there was something else behind the move. I'm hoping there will be a meaningful acquisition soon since we cleared up some more space.

[Cweedchop]

Bit knee-jerky don't ya think?

If we are talking strictly apples for apples, here ya go.....

1. United is 1-1-1 since the trade. 4 goals for, 4 goals against

2. Colorado 0-1-2 and hasn't scored a goal since the trade


Yes, it was painfull to witness that meltdown last night, but at the end of the day I think we will be able to live with this trade. Give it some time. In all honesty it wasn't Vanney's fault that United decided to get into a track meet against one of the best attacking teams in the league. Hopefully a lesson learned last night.

[liverbird]

Bit knee-jerky don't ya think?

If we are talking strictly apples for apples, here ya go.....

1. United is 1-1-1 since the trade. 4 goals for, 4 goals against

2. Colorado 0-1-2 and hasn't scored a goal since the trade


Yes, it was painfull to witness that meltdown last night, but at the end of the day I think we will be able to live with this trade. Give it some time. In all honesty it wasn't Vanney's fault that United decided to get into a track meet against one of the best attacking teams in the league. Hopefully a lesson learned last night.

Indeed, but it was the Coach's fault. I am tired of Tommy announcing that "the team" got things tactically wrong. He should never have brought on Kpene for Moreno. Play Simms and clog up the field with a 4-5-1. With Gomez doing nothing to defend poor Carroll was overwhelmed. I blame this tie not on Vanney or even Perkins but on Soehn. Also Vanney did strike some fine corners but no one got on the end of them. And while I'm debunking, McTavish played well but he did clear a number of balls sky high and twenty yards forward into the middle. That is not recommended full back play.

[griffin1108]

I posted in the post game thread that Vanney for Erpen wasn't "worst trade ever" material but was top ten for sure. This trade will be a disaster. Vanney is done, Dallas knew it and Colorado knew it. Compare the defense before Erpen left, with the one there now -- it's much worse. Of DCU's two centerbacks before the trade, Erpen was playing better than Boswell who has had a stinker of a season. (I don't think it's a poor run of form, I think the MLS coaches have figured out that Boswell is slow and lacks experience and scheme to attack him.) Erpen at least had some athletic ability to make up for mistakes. Vanney has none and makes at least as many as Erpen did.

First game with Vanney was KC -- if Perkins doesn't stand on his head, KC wins 4-0. Second game with Vanney as Houston -- Perkins keeps game close but Houston is by far the more dangerous team. Last night -- 3 goals in less than 30 minutes? The center of the defense was abused last night and Vanney, the alleged steadying influence -- did nothing to right the ship.

The question to ask is whether or not DCU is better with Vanney than it was with Erpen. My answer is "no," the trade is a bust.

[Cweedchop]

Indeed, but it was the Coach's fault. I am tired of Tommy announcing that "the team" got things tactically wrong. He should never have brought on Kpene for Moreno. Play Simms and clog up the field with a 4-5-1. With Gomez doing nothing to defend poor Carroll was overwhelmed. I blame this tie not on Vanney or even Perkins but on Soehn. Also Vanney did strike some fine corners but no one got on the end of them. And while I'm debunking, McTavish played well but he did clear a number of balls sky high and twenty yards forward into the middle. That is not recommended full back play.

In hindsight my guess is Soehn would have done exactly what you suggest with Simms. But for two reasons I'll try and explain why it wasn't done.

1) Kpene hasn't played poorly as of yet and when he has played he has done a very credible job in holding up the ball and finding teamates. That didn't happen last night and certainly his one-v-one miss with Sala would have buried the match IMHO. That move didn't work out and I can't really blame Soehn for making it because Kpene hadn't played poorly since he's been with United.

2. Although the move makes perfect sense now that we know the outcome of the match, I just feel that Soehn didn't want to spend the next 35 minutes purely defending. United is at home, up 3-1 and their best defense is getting that knockout goal. It didn't happen despite numerous chances. I'm thinking Soehn didn't want to go too defensive with nearly 35 minutes left in the game and FC Pizza Hut pouring forward. The advantage of a game like last nights is even though your defense is under heavy pressure, their defense (which is the worst in MLS btw) is also vulnerable and getting just one goal should have sealed the deal.

That being said, once it got to 3-2 Simms should have been in the game as Carroll was being man whored by both Alvarez and Toja all night long.

[Bootsy Collins]

2) Their training this week was interrupted by the Open Cup game, which actually would have been a good opportunity for them to get more in sync or at least work out communication.
4) We've played 4 games in less than ten days. Our guys are bound to have had some degree of fatigue set in.

I thought the other two points you made were quite sensible, but these parts didn't make sense to me. I don't think it's reasonable to count the USOC match in terms of preparation and fatigue any more than it would have been reasonable to count reserve league matches that occurred in that timeframe. That is, after all, how we approached the match. With that in mind, the prior match was last weekend.

[Sundevil9]

I thought the other two points you made were quite sensible, but these parts didn't make sense to me. I don't think it's reasonable to count the USOC match in terms of preparation and fatigue any more than it would have been reasonable to count reserve league matches that occurred in that timeframe. That is, after all, how we approached the match. With that in mind, the prior match was last weekend.

If Boswell doesn't play in the USOC game, then you can wipe it off the list, but Boswell did travel to PA, while Vanney did not. I'm also unaware of any first team action/workouts/casual lunches that happened on Wednesday. On an ordinary week, that's a practice day.

The Open Cup game must have some sort of impact in compressing the week for the club. It's also one reason why I hoped that they'd actually play the First Team defense against Harrisburg, as it would have been another match to help them get on the same page.

[Th4119]

I don't know why Soehn didn't start his expected back four versus Dallas in the USOC on Wednesday. They're defenders so I don't buy into the whole fatigue thing. It seems like that would've been a great opportunity for them to get 90 minutes together to get better at working with one another.

[Cweedchop]

I don't know why Soehn didn't start his expected back four versus Dallas in the USOC on Wednesday. They're defenders so I don't buy into the whole fatigue thing. It seems like that would've been a great opportunity for them to get 90 minutes together to get better at working with one another.

Todd, my guess is that even though they conceivably would have had another 90 minutes under their belts as a unit, the Harrisburg attack would have been a poor facsimile of what they would be facing in MLS.

Things will get better. A little patience is needed.

Patience isn't exactly a soccer fans best and most effective trait.

[Bootsy Collins]

Bit knee-jerky don't ya think?

That's exactly the question I'm asking -- how long before it isn't?


If we are talking strictly apples for apples, here ya go.....

1. United is 1-1-1 since the trade. 4 goals for, 4 goals against

2. Colorado 0-1-2 and hasn't scored a goal since the trade

Oh, come on, Chris.

1. Have you actually watched Colorado's matches in that time? I have. Erpen's played fairly well. They've given up exactly one goal in those three games. We should be so lucky.

2. What in the world is the point of noting that Colorado hasn't scored? Are you expecting goals routinely from, or goals to be routinely created by, either Erpen or Vanney? You think that there's any chance at all that Colorado's lack of goal scoring over that stretch was affected more by their missing their top scorer Herculez Gomez to Copa America, or Pablo Mastroeni to injury, for those games? As far as the production from their offense is concerned, you think the replacement of Vanney with Erpen compares at all in significance to missing Gomez and Mastroeni (or, for that matter, three other players from their starting lineup as well)?