COPA American - Brazil vs Uruguay [R] - Saved Penalty

[ctsoccer13]

I put the [R] in there just in case someone didn't see the game. Just wondering your thoughts on the final save in PKs. If you hadn't seen it, the Brazilian keeper comes what looks like 2 - 3 yards off his line before the ball is kicked and makes the save to win the game. Lots of pushing and shoving after the game because obviously Uruguay wanted a rekick. The announcer on GOLTV was livid that it wasn't called and said that it needs to be called more often. Your thoughts?

[jcrocker]

I put the [R] in there just in case someone didn't see the game. Just wondering your thoughts on the final save in PKs. If you hadn't seen it, the Brazilian keeper comes what looks like 2 - 3 yards off his line before the ball is kicked and makes the save to win the game. Lots of pushing and shoving after the game because obviously Uruguay wanted a rekick. The announcer on GOLTV was livid that it wasn't called and said that it needs to be called more often. Your thoughts?

Both keepers were doing it. He never called it. Why would he do it on the game winner? FIFA needs to mandate that it is illegal and tell the refs to enforce it.

[JoseP]

Both keepers were doing it. He never called it. Why would he do it on the game winner? FIFA needs to mandate that it is illegal and tell the refs to enforce it.

Both keepers weren't doing it. Here's a por quality video, but will show you the goelies were staying on their line - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zQaNdvLqFg. Only Doni did it on the last save and it should have been retaken.

[ctsoccer13]

The goalie from Uruguay pretty much stayed to his line I thought. Possibly coming forward slightly. The Brazilian goalie moved forward on almost every kick and I agree that he's going to push his luck until it's called, which it wasn't. Smart move on his part.

[ref47]

at first, i thought it should have been called. but, on reflection and watching replay, it did not make a difference. the kick went up the middle and the keeper movement did not impact the play. he would have had the ball at his feet had he stayed on the line. the problem is, the fans will not understand this distinction.

[Alberto]

I commented the same thing on the post game thread. It should have been a rekick of the kick. I was also not happy that Ruiz basically let both teams push and fight without attempting to separate the teams. He created this situation, he should have dealt with it.

[BTFOOM]

Watched the game live and thought the penalty should have been retaken. I wonder how many refs in that situation would stop the celebration and order the kick to be re-taken. I read in an earlier post that his movement did not make a difference due the kick being right down the middle. As far as I can see in the laws, this is not a consideration for the referee. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I have a broader question to you regarding how the ref handled the penalties. Would you allow the goalie to walk right up to the kicker, even touching the kicker, prior to the penalty being taken? I do not recall this happening during other penalty situations.

Overall a very enjoyable game and well reffed IMHO.

[JoseP]

at first, i thought it should have been called. but, on reflection and watching replay, it did not make a difference. the kick went up the middle and the keeper movement did not impact the play. he would have had the ball at his feet had he stayed on the line. the problem is, the fans will not understand this distinction.

I don't neccesarily agree with a lack of advantage here. However, is it true that since he probably would have made the save then the call isn't made?

[Alberto]

I don't neccesarily agree with a lack of advantage here. However, is it true that since he probably would have made the save then the call isn't made?

Does anyone see any validity to the following statement? By coming 3-4 yards out prior to the taking of the kick the keeper gained an advantage he was not entitled to and caused the kicker to have to modify his kick. Are we so sure the kicker would have kicked it doen the middle if the keeper stayed on his line?

[Alberto]

Watched the game live and thought the penalty should have been retaken. I wonder how many refs in that situation would stop the celebration and order the kick to be re-taken. I read in an earlier post that his movement did not make a difference due the kick being right down the middle. As far as I can see in the laws, this is not a consideration for the referee. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I have a broader question to you regarding how the ref handled the penalties. Would you allow the goalie to walk right up to the kicker, even touching the kicker, prior to the penalty being taken? I do not recall this happening during other penalty situations.

Overall a very enjoyable game and well reffed IMHO.


Yes, an excellent point. I was not happy that Ruiz did not tell the keeper to back off. He had no business being there.

[ctsoccer13]

I thought the game was well reffed until this point. I did miss one play where someone told me that a Brazilian was taken down in the box and it should have been a penalty but again I didn't see it, I was away from the television at the time. Otherwise I thought it was great. I too was surprised that the refs just sat in the six yard box and let everything get straightened out on by players and managers instead of intervening.

[ref47]

a couple of points.

movement was less than 3 yards as he was not halfway through the ga.

as mass confrontation events go, this was mild. the players were not confronting the ref team. i did not see any vc. the best place to be in a bust-up is not in the bust-up. stand back and take names. the game report would be interesting on this point.

the ref did chase the keepers back from the 12; just not strongly. the announcers even thought he yc a keeper during one of these. i did not see the card shown, however.

[intechpc]

Ref47 I'm sorry but I can't agree with you here. So many times I've seen this exact situation called back. I'm all for giving the keeper a little leway (read: maybe a 1/2 step to a step) but this keeper is 3 steps off the line. I disagree that where the kick ends other than in or out of the net matters in this determination. Definitely a re-kick in my estimation especially after 13 other kicks were performed correctly.

[colins1993]

Does anyone see any validity to the following statement? By coming 3-4 yards out prior to the taking of the kick the keeper gained an advantage he was not entitled to and caused the kicker to have to modify his kick. Are we so sure the kicker would have kicked it doen the middle if the keeper stayed on his line?

I see absolutely no validity in that statement either.

Does the phrase "no cajones" come to anyone else's mind on this??

But then again it was BRA. Things seem to go their way an awful lot IMO.

[bluedevils]

at first, i thought it should have been called. but, on reflection and watching replay, it did not make a difference. the kick went up the middle and the keeper movement did not impact the play. he would have had the ball at his feet had he stayed on the line. the problem is, the fans will not understand this distinction.

Didn't see the game, but I don't really agree with this.

I completely agree with Alberto: Does anyone see any validity to the following statement? By coming 3-4 yards out prior to the taking of the kick the keeper gained an advantage he was not entitled to and caused the kicker to have to modify his kick. Are we so sure the kicker would have kicked it doen the middle if the keeper stayed on his line?

There's no way to know how things would have turned out if the GK stayed on his line. We don't know what went through the kicker's mind. Maybe he saw the GK come out 2-3 yards and start moving toward one side or the other, so he figured 'hey, I will put this one right down the middle.' He may not have gone down the middle if the GK stayed on his line.

[peanutgallery83]

Looking at the replay I'm not sure the keeper was far off the line (if at all). Yes, he does stutter step several times, but if you freeze it just as the kick is taken, it appears that at least one foot (right) is potentially still in contact with the goal line while the left MAY be a step off.

Having watched it several times, and without a replay angle from above or the side, I would say he may well have started at the back of the goal line and stutter stepped to the front of the line, giving the appearance of coming farther forward than he actually did.

Given a 4-5 inch wide goal line, if a keeper lined up with his toes on the back side of the line and he could potentially move a foot or more forward and still have the back of his heels on the line...giving the exagerrated impression of forward movement.

Also the discussion of "did the keepers movement gain him an advantage in cutting down the angle of the shot" is a legit LETTER vs SPIRIT of the law in the case of the keeper barely leaving the line. Given that the shot was almost straight up the middle and not a post shot, it would seem he didn't gain an advantage from any forward movement...and seeing as how kickers rarely look at the keeper I would be hesitant to buy the argument that the kicker altered his kick seeing the keeper off his line...plus the kickers reaction after the save shows he was pretty much clueless to any infringement until his teammates from midfield offered their insight.

Just 2 cents in the bucket.

[MetroFever]

I've never seen a goalie so far off his line and not have it called back. If anyone can post any link video link proving me wrong, showing a more blatant violation of the rule by a goalkeeper and the ref not calling it, please do so. The keeper is about 3 yards off his line before the ball was kicked.

I saw the game last night. The AR is standing only a few yards away, so it was impossible not to see it. Gutless that it wasn't called.

[bluedevils]

Given a 4-5 inch wide goal line, if a keeper lined up with his toes on the back side of the line and he could potentially move a foot or more forward and still have the back of his heels on the line...giving the exagerrated impression of forward movement.
I haven't seen the clip, but this is a very good point you make here.

Also the discussion of "did the keepers movement gain him an advantage in cutting down the angle of the shot" is a legit LETTER vs SPIRIT of the law in the case of the keeper barely leaving the line. Given that the shot was almost straight up the middle and not a post shot, it would seem he didn't gain an advantage from any forward movement...and seeing as how kickers rarely look at the keeper I would be hesitant to buy the argument that the kicker altered his kick seeing the keeper off his line...plus the kickers reaction after the save shows he was pretty much clueless to any infringement until his teammates from midfield offered their insight.

Just 2 cents in the bucket.
Here, I disagree fundamentally as I and others tried to explain earlier. My observation of The Game over the past 2-3 years is that more and more PK takers are employing the 'take it slow, possibly stop briefly and then continue with a herky-jerky run-up to see if I can get the GK to commit early' PK approach. In other words, I think kickers frequently look at the GK prior to and during the taking of a PK. Maybe the kicker in this case did not; as I said, I didn't see the clip.

[bluedevils]

I've never seen a goalie so far off his line and not have it called back. If anyone can post any link video link proving me wrong, showing a more blatant violation of the rule by a goalkeeper and the ref not calling it, please do so. The keeper is about 3 yards off his line before the ball was kicked.

I saw the game last night. The AR is standing only a few yards away, so it was impossible not to see it. Gutless that it wasn't called.

We don't know how PKs were covered in the pre-game discussion among the officiating team. The referee may well have told the ARs to be a goal judge only, and leave the decision about GK coming off the line up to the referee. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been called, just that we can't pin it on the AR.

[gnk]

at first, i thought it should have been called. but, on reflection and watching replay, it did not make a difference. the kick went up the middle and the keeper movement did not impact the play. he would have had the ball at his feet had he stayed on the line. the problem is, the fans will not understand this distinction.

how does that possibly make a difference. either he moved prior to the kick or he did not. everyone here seems to agree (because it's obvious) that the keeper moved. where in the laws of the game does it say that it's up to the ref to determine if the keeper's movement prior to the kick was material to or impacted upon the play? this is analogous to saying that if a player receives the ball in an offside position and scores a goal, the ref should be allowed to let it stand (even though it's clearly offside) becuase in the ref's opinion had the player been onside he still would have scored.