We needed a payback tackle ...

[Captain10]

In the game vs. Cameroon, Martino was taken down from behind in a violent and even criminal tackle. The result is that he has a severe sprain and had to leave the field. The offending player only got a yellow card. The replays show how reckless and vicious the tackle really was.

I have to look at the tape again, but when it happened, I don't remember any US players around the Cameroonian player getting in his face. If there was ever a time to stand up to someone, this was it. Again, I didn't see anyone stand up for Martino. Where are our *enforcers*?

And there certainly should have been a *payback* tackle soon after the game resumed. Not to injure one of their players and take him out of the game, but to challenge hard and take one down to make a statement that the former play was unacceptable. An eye for an eye -- you take one of ours down like that, and we'll take down one of yours. But it never happened ... :(

If you look at the games of teams like Brasil, France, etc., a challenge like that does not go unpunished. It happens all the time -- and the effect of the payback tackle is that it serves as a deterrent to future vicious tackles. What we did, in effect, is encourage that kind of behavior by not paying them back. We needed someone to step up and make a statement. Next time I hope we have the cohones to stand up for our teammates and give the team the payback they asked for ...

[PScott8502]

Didnt Convey put one on someone running down the flank. Might not have been because afterwards he bent over as to apologize to the Cameroon player. It was a pretty nasty challenge from behind though.

[Casper]

Originally posted by Captain10
In the game vs. Cameroon, Martino was taken down from behind in a violent and even criminal tackle. The result is that he has a severe sprain and had to leave the field. The offending player only got a yellow card. The replays show how reckless and vicious the tackle really was.

I have to look at the tape again, but when it happened, I don't remember any US players around the Cameroonian player getting in his face. If there was ever a time to stand up to someone, this was it. Again, I didn't see anyone stand up for Martino. Where are our *enforcers*?

And there certainly should have been a *payback* tackle soon after the game resumed. Not to injure one of their players and take him out of the game, but to challenge hard and take one down to make a statement that the former play was unacceptable. An eye for an eye -- you take one of ours down like that, and we'll take down one of yours. But it never happened ... :(

If you look at the games of teams like Brasil, France, etc., a challenge like that does not go unpunished. It happens all the time -- and the effect of the payback tackle is that it serves as a deterrent to future vicious tackles. What we did, in effect, is encourage that kind of behavior by not paying them back. We needed someone to step up and make a statement. Next time I hope we have the cohones to stand up for our teammates and give the team the payback they asked for ...

This is kind of attitude of which red cards are made.

We didn't need to try to injure any Cameroon players.

[Captain10]

Originally posted by Casper
This is kind of attitude of which red cards are made.

We didn't need to try to injure any Cameroon players.
I agree we didn't need to injure any Cameroon players, however, there are ways of tackling hard in the run of play and sending a message without getting a red card ...

... and even if we did get a red card in yesterday's game for the payback, because of the violent nature of the original tackle which caused a serious injury while not playing the ball, with it being our last inconsequential game, it is one of the few instances in which I wouldn't have minded it.

[Northside Rovers]

Tackle the ref from behind - that would send the message.

MLS refs aren't the only ones who need to re-read the rule book.

[seahawkdad]

Originally posted by Casper
This is kind of attitude of which red cards are made.

We didn't need to try to injure any Cameroon players.
No, this is the attitude that comes from refs not doing their jobs. The purpose of the red card is to protect the players. If the ref doesn't do it, then at some point the players will.

It happens all the time in soccer. One of my sons wound up the enforcer for his team...not designated, just because it fit his personality. Another son was one of a group of defenders who went over to a striker who wasn't being prevented by a ref from crashing their keeper and told him that the next one would result in a broken leg. And my daughter has a similar attitude when it comes to refs not protecting her teammates (hmmm....maybe it's in the genes).

Why were there so many enforcers in hockey? Because the refs control so loosely.

Why are there fewer hit batters in the National league than the American? Because the National League pitchers get to have their own turn at being a target.

Retaliation is a natural human instinct. If you wrong my team, unless someone like a ref does something about it then I'm going to.

[Tuba]

Captain10,

You are right on the money. Martino was lucky he didn't leave the field with a broken leg. That was a red card offense. But as I noted in a post in another thread,.....we will never get a call from anyone anywhere. Plain and simple. I am amazed that someone didn't take one of those Africans out. The team should be ashamed. We have sunk pretty low when a nation that couldn't organize a dog fight does not repsect us and we don't stand up to them. Who was the captian? Armas?

Aside,.....we are a small team. When we have the likes Donovan, Beasley, Martino, Cherundolo, Armas and even Bocanegra on the field,....we are tiny. The difference is that these other national teams are getting the best athletes in the country. The best athletes in the USA are playing football, basketball and baseball. We need to develop more athletes like Saneh and Klein.

[Femfa]

Retaliation fouls are crap, and that's not why I watch the beautiful game. That's also why I don't watch hockey.

A red card on one of our players helps no one. Winning is the best revenge.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by Tuba
The difference is that these other national teams are getting the best athletes in the country. The best athletes in the USA are playing football, basketball and baseball. We need to develop more athletes like Saneh and Klein.


Got bad news for you, nearly all of the guys six foot plus who are good athletes play football and basketball. More bad news, that ain't likely to change, hence my rants on why we need to just forget about getting them and completely emphasize skill over size, like say a Turkey does. Turkey isn't a big team by European standards. Spain really isn't either. South Korea isn't either. Italy isn't if you've seen Inzaghi, Del Piero or Totti. Most of the best soccer players in the world aren't great athletes in the context of sports like football and basketball. Unless you really think that Zidane, Figo, Raul, Pires, Totti, Ruud, Bergkamp, Nihat, Rui Costa et al would really stand out on a basketball court.

[gnk]

Originally posted by Tuba
Captain10,

You are right on the money. Martino was lucky he didn't leave the field with a broken leg. That was a red card offense. But as I noted in a post in another thread,.....we will never get a call from anyone anywhere. Plain and simple. I am amazed that someone didn't take one of those Africans out. The team should be ashamed. We have sunk pretty low when a nation that couldn't organize a dog fight does not repsect us and we don't stand up to them. Who was the captian? Armas?

Aside,.....we are a small team. When we have the likes Donovan, Beasley, Martino, Cherundolo, Armas and even Bocanegra on the field,....we are tiny. The difference is that these other national teams are getting the best athletes in the country. The best athletes in the USA are playing football, basketball and baseball. We need to develop more athletes like Saneh and Klein.

Agreed. I thought the same things during the game: (1) the foul on Martino was brutal; the Cameroon player left his feet and "tackled" Martino with both legs wrapped around Martino's leg; (2) we did not retalitate (I recognize that this is not the mentality we want to foster, but the reality is that every team in every top leage and every top-level National team does this; example: Roy Keane); (3) we were very small yesterday: Lewis, Cherundolo, Convey; Martino, DMB, Donovan. Nothing per se wrong with being small, but it was inevitable that we would get pushed around a bit against a strong side like Cameroon.

[Captain10]

Originally posted by Femfa
Retaliation fouls are crap, and that's not why I watch the beautiful game. That's also why I don't watch hockey.

A red card on one of our players helps no one. Winning is the best revenge.
99% of the time I will agree with this if a play is made on the ball. But in this case, I believe a payback tackle was warranted. The original tackle was from behind, with no play on the ball, and severely injured our player. What more do you want?!

In this instance, the game meant nothing and we lost one of our players ... getting a red card here would not have hurt us as much as allowing that play to go unanswered ...

[gnk]

One other point I forgot to make: Convey's tackle that got him a yellow was certainly not retaliation. It was not on the same player and it was mostly a shirt tug with a bit of leg tackle. The Cameroon player went down like he was shot, but was up in a moment after he realized that Convey was carded. And Convey's reaction (ie, trying to help the guy up) certainly showed that he was not retaiating. He simply fouled the guy.

[Tuba]

Wandering,

Actually,.....Zidane is a pretty big man in soccer terms and the others that you mentioned are not midgets. We are bordering on being a national team of jockeys. Also, you should have thrown Edgar Davids in your examples for good measure. But then again, having met Mr. Davids on a beach in Hawaii I know that the the guy is like something out of marvel comics. Besides there are always exceptions. Juninho comes to mind. Maybe size was the reason a certain Diego Maradona was 'juiced' as a youth so his prodigious skills would not be overun on the field.

Again,....we are a small team. Would I trade LD for Jeff Durgan or John Doyle? Never. But we need some atheletes to compete. [BTW - The Ukranians came to the same conclusion after having been eliminated from WCQ by Germany in a play-off. They have players in the caliber of Shevchenko,....but they are also a small team.]

Anyway,................we should have retaliated. GIVEN that the Referee did not expell the African for his unfair challenge,....what makes you think that he would have produced a red if Armas had launched himself at one of the guys who sell fake jewelery on the corner of 45th and Broadway? Hey,....if you watch MLS you would know that a certain Metrostar gave Chad McCarty a deserved 'bow to the chops without being caught by the officials. Hell! Wolyniec is not even an international,.....but he is a pro!!!

Justice should have been served.

[Davids26]

Bring back Matt McKeon!!!

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
Most of the best soccer players in the world aren't great athletes in the context of sports like football and basketball.

Soccer players ARE the best athletes in the world, period. One of the beautiful things about soccer is that you do not need to be a freak to be good. Look at Olajuwan, Mutombo, and Ewing, both grew up playing soccer but couldn't cut it so they had to switch to basketball. How many NFL linemen are great Athletes? They can't run 1o yards without having to go to the bech for oxygen. It is unatural to build huge muscles required today to play American football or baseball. I'll stick with the normal sized men and watch soccer.

[appoo]

Originally posted by Kaiser
Soccer players ARE the best athletes in the world, period. One of the beautiful things about soccer is that you do not need to be a freak to be good. Look at Olajuwan, Mutombo, and Ewing, both grew up playing soccer but couldn't cut it so they had to switch to basketball. How many NFL linemen are great Athletes? They can't run 1o yards without having to go to the bech for oxygen. It is unatural to build huge muscles required today to play American football or baseball. I'll stick with the normal sized men and watch soccer.

You'd be surprised at how many NFL lineman can run a 40 yards dash under 5 seconds. Something that 99% of the World can't do

[flux82]

We don't really have a nasty player that would go back and retalitate like are saying at the moment. One thing that does suprise me is that Mathis didn't get in that guys face when it happened. If I remember correctly, he has a history for standing for players on his team. Anyway, Armas is certainly not going to do anything like that. Who in our player pool would? Mastroeni? Anyone?

[MyHouse!]

I was telling my wife that I woud have found that guy's number and would have picked up a card in the closing minutes.

A suspension may have been warranted but it would put people on notice that you don't do that to someone on my team.

There are ways of doing it even when the ref isn't looking. Elbows punches etc. in the box during corners or away from the play. You have to know when to do it as they do in basketball.

There is no way a foul like that should go unpunished.

[JohnR]

Hmmm, I remember fervent arguments last year about how Mexico pushes us around and how we need tough guys to hit them back and get cards.

Guess that explains why Mexico knocked us out of the World Cup, through those highly effective intimidation tactics.

OK, different topic: FIFA should be ashamed at its referees' inconsistency in major matches. Was reviewing my World Cup highlights DVD yesterday. The red card assessed to Henry -- early in the second game, a card that effectively ended France's chances -- was for a much softer infraction than what the Cameroon guy did to Martino. The red card given to Ronaldinho against England -- which didn't have an effect on the game but very well might have, in fact could have derailed Brazil's championship challenge -- was softer yet. In fact, I'm not even sure that foul warranted a yellow.

It's FIFA's job to make sure that the officials are consistent. It's failing at this task.

[FlashMan]

I agree with the payback idea. All that was needed a good hard foul...but hard enough so there was no question a statement was being made.

Where's Patrick Viera when you need him?