Questionable Call

[doug1500]

Hi I'm not exactly sure that this is the right place to post, but I have a question about a scenario.

Lets say a player receives a ball and he is offside. The ball played to him puts him in a 1v1 position with the keeper. Now since he is offside, the play is dead. The flag is up, all that good stuff. But an opposing defender, not seeing the flag, goes in for a professional foul whilst play is dead, two-footed, from behind. What would be the outcome of that? Obviously you can be carded whilst play is dead, but I need an expert opinion.

[Ref Flunkie]

Hi I'm not exactly sure that this is the right place to post, but I have a question about a scenario.

Lets say a player receives a ball and he is offside. The ball played to him puts him in a 1v1 position with the keeper. Now since he is offside, the play is dead. The flag is up, all that good stuff. But an opposing defender, not seeing the flag, goes in for a professional foul whilst play is dead, two-footed, from behind. What would be the outcome of that? Obviously you can be carded whilst play is dead, but I need an expert opinion.

You are mixing some terms. It sounds like you are asking what would happen if the attacker was offside, the AR raised his flag, and the CR had not yet recognized the offside by blowing the whistle. During this time, the defender goes in with what sounds like serious foul play (SFP) which is punished by sending off the attacker. Is this correct? In either case, the CR would communicate with the AR at some point and it would be determined that if the offside occurred before the SFP tackle, the restart would be IDFK for defending team (offside) and a send off for the defender (I'm not sure if you would classify this as SFP or VC...my guess would still be SFP since play had not been technically stopped and VC would carry a greater penalty for the player.

[campton]

Call offside, send off the player for SFP

[doug1500]

You are mixing some terms. It sounds like you are asking what would happen if the attacker was offside, the AR raised his flag, and the CR had not yet recognized the offside by blowing the whistle. During this time, the defender goes in with what sounds like serious foul play (SFP) which is punished by sending off the attacker. Is this correct? In either case, the CR would communicate with the AR at some point and it would be determined that if the offside occurred before the SFP tackle, the restart would be IDFK for defending team (offside) and a send off for the defender (I'm not sure if you would classify this as SFP or VC...my guess would still be SFP since play had not been technically stopped and VC would carry a greater penalty for the player.

Thanks a lot. I had a less serious situation where I was the defender and professional foul crossed my mind, but before I acted upon it, the CR blew. Just wondering what could have happened there :)

[Ref Flunkie]

Thanks a lot. I had a less serious situation where I was the defender and professional foul crossed my mind, but before I acted upon it, the CR blew. Just wondering what could have happened there :)

Same thing applies to a caution. Referee could caution you but still give you the IDFK for offside.

[StateRef1]

Call offside, send off the player for SFP

Minor correcton (sorry to be a stickler). If you "call the offside", the ball is out of play. Can't be SFP. The correct reason for sendoff is VC.

[campton]

Minor correcton (sorry to be a stickler). If you "call the offside", the ball is out of play. Can't be SFP. The correct reason for sendoff is VC.

Even if the call was not made yet? Like the defender fouled.....then..whistle.

[StateRef1]

Even if the call was not made yet? Like the defender fouled.....then..whistle.

I assumed that by "called the offside", it was meant that the referee had made the decision in his/her mind to penalize the offside player and, subsequently, the tackle occurred. In that case, the ball is out of play. The actual timing of the whistle is irrelevant. The offside actually happened when the decision was made. On the other hand, if the referee had not already decided or disagreed with the flag, then it could be SFP if the defender was challenging for the ball (since, obviously, it was on the field of play, while the ball was in play, and against an opponent).

[Ref Flunkie]

I assumed that by "called the offside", it was meant that the referee had made the decision in his/her mind to penalize the offside player and, subsequently, the tackle occurred. In that case, the ball is out of play. The actual timing of the whistle is irrelevant. The offside actually happened when the decision was made. On the other hand, if the referee had not already decided or disagreed with the flag, then it could be SFP if the defender was challenging for the ball (since, obviously, it was on the field of play, while the ball was in play, and against an opponent).

What if the referee had not seen the AR's flag? I would think this is SFP then.

[StateRef1]

What if the referee had not seen the AR's flag? I would think this is SFP then.

Same answer. If, after consulting with the AR, the referee decides to penalize the offside, then no SFP. Having said all of this, however, let's talk real game situation. Here's the scenario...player in an offside position, AR pops flag, defender violently takes out attacker, then referee blows whistle. Under those circumstances in a real match, is the best restart: a.) IFK for defending team for offside or b.) DFK (or PK) for attacking team who's player was just on the receiving end of a tackle violent enough for a red card? Hopefully, the referee realizes that the AR "may have made a mistake" when he raised the flag.

[blech]

Same answer. If, after consulting with the AR, the referee decides to penalize the offside, then no SFP. Having said all of this, however, let's talk real game situation. Here's the scenario...player in an offside position, AR pops flag, defender violently takes out attacker, then referee blows whistle. Under those circumstances in a real match, is the best restart: a.) IFK for defending team for offside or b.) DFK (or PK) for attacking team who's player was just on the receiving end of a tackle violent enough for a red card? Hopefully, the referee realizes that the AR "may have made a mistake" when he raised the flag.

You're right on part 1 - doesn't matter whether the CR was going to call the offside or had not even seen the flag yet. Once he gets that information, you unwind things back to that point.

That being the case, I don't see the game management benefit of going where you might be suggesting in part 2 of your post. If you're really overruling the offside, then so be it. But I don't follow what purpose is served by just ignoring it to get to a result that you think might be more fair. For my two cents, you're going to lose more credibility than it's worth once you become lawless like that. And, it's a pretty serious penalty to the defending team (and the red carded player) to see that they just had a player sent off for taking down a player who was offside. Doh!!!!

[MassachusettsRef]

Same answer. If, after consulting with the AR, the referee decides to penalize the offside, then no SFP. Having said all of this, however, let's talk real game situation. Here's the scenario...player in an offside position, AR pops flag, defender violently takes out attacker, then referee blows whistle. Under those circumstances in a real match, is the best restart: a.) IFK for defending team for offside or b.) DFK (or PK) for attacking team who's player was just on the receiving end of a tackle violent enough for a red card? Hopefully, the referee realizes that the AR "may have made a mistake" when he raised the flag.Whoah! Are you really suggesting what I think you're suggesting?

You're arguing that, solely because of the nature of the foul, you should contemplate ignoring the offside and giving the DFK/PK?!?! I fail to see any logic or any justification in doing so.

From a game management perspective, this is NOT going to help. Everyone will have seen the flag--players from both teams--and will have known that the attacker was offside. The defense, which will already be upset with the red card, no matter how obvious it may have been, is going to be irate that you are also now giving, potentially, a penalty. And the offense will have known they didn't "deserve" it.

Moreover, as a referee, not only are you ignoring the Laws as written, you're trampling on the Spirit of the Game. What gives you the right to decide the penalty (or DFK) is a better or more just outcome? Not only do you not have the right, you're also completely wrong. It's very well probable that the attacker wouldn't have got the ball behind the defense unless he was offside, hence, if he hadn't been offside, the violent tackle probably never would have occurred. In other words, the offside infraction was necessary for there to ever be a tackle, which means the player is getting exactly what he's not supposed to be getting from being offside: namely, he's "gaining an advantage" from violating Law XI if you give a PK/DFK.

The whole suggestion, honestly, is mind-blowing. I hope you reconsider your position.

Finally, as to the whole SFP/VC thing. Let's not get overly technical here (or, if you do need to be overly technical, make sure you get it right). The classifications for VC & SFP matter very much insofar as automatic discipline goes. I've seen VC range all the way up to 6 automatic games in some competition. Writing such an instance up as VC could be very unjust. The fact is, in such a case, the defender is making a play for the ball while he believes it's in play. The laws say:

A player who commits a cautionable or sending-off offence, either on or off the field of play, whether directed towards an opponent, a team-mate, the referee, an assistant referee or any other person, is disciplined according to the nature of the offence committed.The "nature of the offence" is that of a foul; not one of violent conduct. No one knows or can be certain that you (the referee) is going to whistle for something in the future, even if it has already occurred (the offside infraction). The bottom line is that this player is not committing violent conduct; writing it up as such is unfair. But if you're still not convinced and feel the need to stringently follow your own interpretation of "in play/out of play" based on when the referee has decided to stop play, then you absolutely must be thorough in your report and list all the details of the incident in the supplemental. You should explicitly state that the foul occurred before the whistle went.

[socref79]

These are not concurrent situations with different restarts. If a player in an offside position causes the defender to give chase and no other onside player has a chance at the ball, the offside must be whistled.

Imagine a ball momentarily crossing a touchline near midfield with the R not looking at the respective AR for that touchline. Player with the ball (A9) is speedy and quickly finds himself in an OGSO situation. B7 is the 2LD and fouls A9 at the top of the penalty arc. Before issuing the red card the R notices that AR2 has his flag held high (as it has been for the past 15 seconds).

The red card is displayed and the restart is the throw in.

Let's not overthink the situation.

Hopefully, the referee realizes that the AR "may have made a mistake" when he raised the flag.

Do you trust your AR's? Let's assume you have a very experienced grade 8 in that AR position who is gearing towards getting upgraded, who is watching and analyzing your decisions and has a world of respect for you :)

I'd like to hear your rationale in PM. It stays between us.

Nick C - S.MD

[Spaceball]

Imagine a ball momentarily crossing a touchline near midfield with the R not looking at the respective AR for that touchline. Player with the ball (A9) is speedy and quickly finds himself in an OGSO situation. B7 is the 2LD and fouls A9 at the top of the penalty arc. Before issuing the red card the R notices that AR2 has his flag held high (as it has been for the past 15 seconds).

The red card is displayed and the restart is the throw in.

Let's not overthink the situation.

Why are you issuing a red card here? If it was for the nature of the foul, that is fine...but how can you deny an obvious goal scoring opportunity when the ball is no longer in play? In this case, I don't see how you can justify a send off for DOGSO which seems to be what you are implying.

A real life situation from youth regionals a couple years ago that happened to a friend of mine on a match I was watching. Ball played through on a counter attack, attacker one on one and gets taken down in a clear DOGSO situation. Referee, right there after a long sprint, immediately shows red and the player starts walking off with no argument. Ref looks over to is AR only to see him back near midfield with his flag up for offside. Realizing his mistake he calls the player back, rescinds the red card and they restart with an IFK and 22 players on the field. This was completely correct as the foul was only a simple foul and not worth any card other than the situation. However, since that player could not have scored (as the Ref would have seen his AR eventually) there was no OGSO.

Like I said, if the Red Card is for the foul (SFP/VC) then it is still red, but the fact the ball is not in play negates the OGSO and you simply can't send someone off for DOGSO at that point.

[socref79]

Because the tackle amounted to SFP :D

You are correct in your analysis. My mistake.

[DadOf6]

The "nature of the offence" is that of a foul; not one of violent conduct. No one knows or can be certain that you (the referee) is going to whistle for something in the future, even if it has already occurred (the offside infraction). The bottom line is that this player is not committing violent conduct; writing it up as such is unfair. But if you're still not convinced and feel the need to stringently follow your own interpretation of "in play/out of play" based on when the referee has decided to stop play, then you absolutely must be thorough in your report and list all the details of the incident in the supplemental. You should explicitly state that the foul occurred before the whistle went.

This is an issue that gets brought up from time to time in our referee meetings and it is always stressed that it is VC. I would argue that the nature of the offence is a two-footed tackle from behind after the defender was beaten. I would stress that the foul occured after the offside but before the whistle.

[Rufusabc]

In real time, it is a sending off...and then after the match is over you file your report. At that time, you will have the advantage of replaying the events more clearly in your mind, and will have the opportunity to write down the proper call. That's what makes these what if's, just what they are...what if's.....

Rog

[billf]

Same answer. If, after consulting with the AR, the referee decides to penalize the offside, then no SFP. Having said all of this, however, let's talk real game situation. Here's the scenario...player in an offside position, AR pops flag, defender violently takes out attacker, then referee blows whistle. Under those circumstances in a real match, is the best restart: a.) IFK for defending team for offside or b.) DFK (or PK) for attacking team who's player was just on the receiving end of a tackle violent enough for a red card? Hopefully, the referee realizes that the AR "may have made a mistake" when he raised the flag.

How did you get a state badge?

[AspireNatlRef]

The play is stopped when the referee makes the decision not if he stops play or not...
So only an IFK with a caution.....
FIFA says that making the decision doesn't matter if you whilstled it dead or not.... only if the call is made in 2-3 seconds
So yes he is offside, but the foul after the play was stopped... whisle stoppage or not is important. Yes he should be cautioned. But restart is IKD. no goal scoring oppertunity trumos this

So IDK then caution/send off for the severity. Is this not in the spirit and the letter of the law?

Cy

[peanutgallery83]

If the referee chooses to acknowledge the offside flag (correct) then the reason for the send off in this situations MUST be Violent Conduct as the tackle occurred AFTER the decision of offside had already been made (ARs flag) even if the referee is late to acknowledge it. Restart is an IDFK to defense.

It is not the whistle that determines when the play is dead...it is at the determination that there was a situation for which to stop play. In cases of offside, that determination is upon the AR making his/her decision of offside/not offside. The only remaining decision then to be made by the referee is whether or not to take the information from the AR and in turn blow the whistle, but the actual decision as to WHEN the play is dead is upon the ARs decision of when the offside occurred.

Think of it as the AR playing the role of the REFs brain in this case. The brain (AR) made the decision, the REF was just slow in getting to the whistle.