Squad numbers

[dwinkler]

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/020807/21/d6vag.html

1 David SEAMAN
3 Ashley COLE
4 Patrick VIEIRA
5 Martin KEOWN
7 Robert PIRES
8 Fredrik LJUNGBERG
9 Francis JEFFERS
10 Dennis BERGKAMP
11 Sylvain WILTORD
12 LAUREN
13 Stuart TAYLOR
14 Thierry HENRY
15 Ray PARLOUR
16 Giovanni VAN BRONCKHORST
17 EDU
18 Pascal CYGAN
19 Gilberto SILVA
20 Matthew UPSON
21 Jermaine PENNANT
22 Oleg LUZHNY
23 Sol CAMPBELL
24 Fabian CARINI
25 KANU
26 Igors STEPANOVS
27 Stathis TAVLARIDIS
28 Kolo TOURE
29 Moritz VOLZ
30 Jeremie ALIADIERE

[fox point fury]

Any chance of #6 being retired? Do other nations do that sort of thing or is it strictly an American practice?

[dwinkler]

Well, Argentina wanted to "retire" Maradonna's old number (10, I think) at this year's World Cup by not assigning it to anyone. That got shot down.

There's been some discussion about this in The Gooner fanzine and on the Arsenal mailing list, and most of it seems to be against retiring numbers. Brian Dawes, a frequent contributor to both, argues against it in this piece from The Online Gooner (written a few months ago):
http://www.onlinegooner.com/feature/feature42.htm

For me, if it's good enough for truly great franchises like the Yankees and Celtics, then it's good enough for a very good franchise like Arsenal. But, since many Euros would rather pull a self-Lorena Bobbit than risk copying something that Americans do, I'd guess we'll be seeing retired numbers at Arsenal at around the same time that Spurs actually sign a big-name player.

[Gunnersaurus]

That guy gets in a fair bit of Yank-bashing, too!

I hadn't realized that the idea that you ought to wear the same number each week only came into the league in 95/96 - I thought it was a bit earlier than that. Considering the concept of "owning" a number is relatively new, it's surprising he's so against the idea. I'd have thought the attitude would be more like, "Retire a number? Why so meaningless a gesture?"

Reminds me of a game I was watching back in the days of one substitution per game. On a warm afternoon, the sub had already been made, it was late in the game, and the goalkeeper got hurt. Before they took the goalie off on a stretcher, they peeled his jersey off and gave it to a field player, who put it on and finished the game in goal. I guess they didn't have an extra clean green shirt. Ick, must be about 30 years ago, and it still gives me the willies.

-G. Rex

[revelation]

The issue I have with that article is the ease with which Brian Dawes wants to retire numbers. Retire a number after someone wore it for 8 seasons?! That's preposterous! What value does it serve? None. A number should only be retired after a long, long, long stint of service combined with meaningful contributions throughout. Kind of like what Mr. Arsenal has done.

That said, I too am against retiring the number. I'm not particularly fond of the idea retiring numbers and still actually like the idea of squad numbers being related to position on the field, although remaining the same each season...Bah, I'm old school!

[dwinkler]

Rev, I agree with you. If Tony Adams's number gets retired, it should be not only for how good a player he was for the 18 years he served with Arsenal, but also for his intangibles, like leadership ability, guts, courage, character, etc.

G. Rex, Yank-bashing isn't isolated to only Brian, who usually provides very reasonable analysis. One guy on the Arsenal mailing list wrote that Adams's number shouldn't be retired because "we're not hysterical Americans."

[Senor Askew]

Originally posted by dwinkler

For me, if it's good enough for truly great franchises like the Yankees and Celtics, then it's good enough for a very good franchise like Arsenal.

You Sir, are an idiot.

[HighburyGoon]

I'll preface this by saying that being a native New Yorker, I love the Yankees; but take a look at this:

Number Player Retired
1 Billy Martin August 10, 1986
3 Babe Ruth June 13, 1948
4 Lou Gehrig July 4, 1939
5 Joe DiMaggio 1952
7 Mickey Mantle June 8, 1969
8 Bill Dickey 1972
8 Yogi Berra 1972
9 Roger Maris July 21, 1984
10 Phil Rizzuto August 4, 1985
15 Thurman Munson 1979
16 Whitey Ford 1974
23 Don Mattingly August 31, 1997
32 Elston Howard July 21, 1984
37 Casey Stengel 1970
42 Jackie Robinson April 15, 1997 (MLB wide)
44 Reggie Jackson August 14, 1993

That doesn't leave too many numbers in the lower end of the spectrum left. If you consider that Derek Jeter's # 2 will probably be added to that list and quite possibly Joe Torre's #6 as well, that means that the numbers 1-10 will never be available again.

Doesn't this seem just the slightest bit silly?

As for Captain Tone, I think perhaps a statue outside the new stadium would be a nice and fitting gesture.

[Ian Lozada]

I prefer to keep the number available. At Syracuse University, we have a tradition of handing the #44 jersey to our best running backs. When you've filled the shirt with players like Jim Brown, Ernie Davis and Floyd Little, it makes the awarding of that shirt a significant recruiting tool.

Now obviously there's some differences in recruiting kids to play college football and the myriad of ways Arsenal acquire their players, but keeping certain shirt numbers as a reward that you have to earn adds to the tradition of a club. Makes it more of a responsibility to live up to the legacy if you're the guy who has to take on, for instance, Dennis Bergkamp's #10, wouldn't you say?

[Senor Askew]

Originally posted by Ian Lozada
I prefer to keep the number available. At Syracuse University, we have a tradition of handing the #44 jersey to our best running backs. When you've filled the shirt with players like Jim Brown, Ernie Davis and Floyd Little, it makes the awarding of that shirt a significant recruiting tool.

Now obviously there's some differences in recruiting kids to play college football and the myriad of ways Arsenal acquire their players, but keeping certain shirt numbers as a reward that you have to earn adds to the tradition of a club. Makes it more of a responsibility to live up to the legacy if you're the guy who has to take on, for instance, Dennis Bergkamp's #10, wouldn't you say?

Well thought out words Ian, and true too.

It's just silly to screw with tradition, how about retiring it for just a few years in defference to the departed player, 3-4 maybe?

But I'd prefer it not be done at all. Would it make an Argentinian prouder to wear the same number on his back as Maradona or the #23? Would it make a kid who's come up through the Arsenal youth ranks prouder to wear #6 or #22?

Sure homage should be paid to great players, but in other ways.

[Senor Askew]

Originally posted by dwinkler
http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/020807/21/d6vag.html
27 Stathis TAVLARIDIS
28 Kolo TOURE
29 Moritz VOLZ
30 Jeremie ALIADIERE

p.p.s. Who the hell are these guys?

[HighburyGoon]

They're all young guys, most of whom are playing at our feeder team in Belgium right now. From what I've been reading, Aliadere has really impressed AW, and we should be seeing more of him up front, subbing for TH14 or DB10.

[Coach_McGuirk]

OK, I'm jumping in this fray, and the American example I'm going to use id probably going to get me flamed, but here goes.....

The Dallas Cowboys do not retire numbers, they simply add any player or coach (actually, just one coach) to the "Ring of Honor" around Texas Stadium. That way, the number is not retired, yet the man is still honored within the stadium.

[michaec]

Originally posted by Coach_McGuirk
OK, I'm jumping in this fray, and the American example I'm going to use id probably going to get me flamed, but here goes.....

The Dallas Cowboys do not retire numbers, they simply add any player or coach (actually, just one coach) to the "Ring of Honor" around Texas Stadium. That way, the number is not retired, yet the man is still honored within the stadium.

This is actually not the worst idea I've ever heard. And if they were retiring shirts at Arsenal, 5 of the first 6 numbers would already be gone:

1. David Seaman
2. Lee Dixon
3. Nigel Winterburn
5. Steve Bould
6. Tony Adams

With number four to follow in the next few years I have no doubt.

[jamison]

England doesn't have a tradition of retiring the number, so I say don't retire it. They do have a silly tradition of making people knights though (Elton John? Please), so perhaps Sir Tony Adams will get a deserved honour in some form, be it a plaque or a statue. Either would be appropriate.

BTW, how come when brits have tradition it's called tradition, but when Americans have tradition we are hysterical nuts? Should the Yankees retire every friggin number? No. But guys like Ruth, Gehrig and DiMaggio deserve the honor. True, in 50 or 100 years our team will all be wearing numbers 60-85, but that's the price you pay for having the most successful team in all of American sports.

Also, if we abandon all American traditions, that includes the tradition of bailing out England everytime a big war breaks out. Stick that in your pie hole, basil! (only kidding).

[revelation]

Originally posted by michaec


This is actually not the worst idea I've ever heard. And if they were retiring shirts at Arsenal, 5 of the first 6 numbers would already be gone:

1. David Seaman
2. Lee Dixon
3. Nigel Winterburn
5. Steve Bould
6. Tony Adams

With number four to follow in the next few years I have no doubt.

michaec, I would actually like to hear the justification for numbers 1-5. One thing I see is that people across the pond don't seem to have a full idea of what it takes for a number to be retired. For example, unless Viera stays the rest of his career at Arsenal and wins a few more titles, he shouldn't honored in such a way. Bergkamp as much as I like him, shouldn't be honored this way either.

BTW - I am against the idea of retiring the number, but would like the justification for some of the names that get tossed around beside Tony Adams.

[dwinkler]

Originally posted by jamison
They do have a silly tradition of making people knights though (Elton John? Please)
Or 'Sirs.' (Alex Ferguson? Please.)

[Ian Lozada]

Originally posted by dwinkler

27 Stathis TAVLARIDIS
28 Kolo TOURE
29 Moritz VOLZ
30 Jeremie ALIADIERE

Originally posted by Senor Askew


p.p.s. Who the hell are these guys?

Tavlaridis played a couple of League Cup games for us at central defense and right back.

Volz is an up and coming young midfielder, and I want to say left-footed.

Aliadiere got a cup of coffee with the first team last year and is an outstanding striker prospect.

I can't say I've run into Toure's name that much but all I've heard suggest he's a keeper.

[dwinkler]

Originally posted by Ian Lozada
Volz is an up and coming young midfielder, and I want to say left-footed.
Right back who captained Germany's U-20 team at the recent tournament. Also plays midfield. People who watch the youths closely say he is one of the players most likely to break into the senior squad. He and Aladiere have been personally mentioned by Wenger as young players who will get first-team opportunities this season.

Originally posted by Ian Lozada
I can't say I've run into Toure's name that much but all I've heard suggest he's a keeper.
Toure came out of nowhere last season to feature in some reserve matches; was apparently discovered by Wenger's friend who is now in charge of Beveren (can't remember his name).

[442]

Kolo Toure, get to know that name, is a middie, a young Ivory Coaster I believe. He was injured all last year but has impressed in pre-season. He will be this year's Edu. A surprising contributor due to our midfield injuries.

You heard it here first.