Squad numbers

[FC LA]

Originally posted by Senor Askew
[B]

It's just silly to screw with tradition, how about retiring it for just a few years in defference to the departed player, 3-4 maybe?


The amusing part is of course, with Adam's delaying his official retirement announcement, and the squad numbers being handed out already, it looks as though his number goes into de facto retirement for a year at least anyway.

[michaec]

Originally posted by revelation


michaec, I would actually like to hear the justification for numbers 1-5. One thing I see is that people across the pond don't seem to have a full idea of what it takes for a number to be retired. For example, unless Viera stays the rest of his career at Arsenal and wins a few more titles, he shouldn't honored in such a way. Bergkamp as much as I like him, shouldn't be honored this way either.

BTW - I am against the idea of retiring the number, but would like the justification for some of the names that get tossed around beside Tony Adams.

Dixon, Winterburn and Bould were absolute nobodies before being plucked out of obscurity by George Graham and anchoring the team throughout the 90s. Seaman was a bit more well known, but has done his best stuff in an Arsenal shirt. All four were/are rocks of the squad throughout the last 10 - 15 years. I think each of them have played 400+ games (Dixon is about third in the appearance records for the club I think), were willing to lay themselves on the line for the club and never tried to hog the limelight, going about their business in a professional and dignified manner instead of getting their names splashed all over press. None of them ever wanted to leave, Winterburn was forced out, Dixon and Bould retired and Seaman is of course still the No. 1. Uncle Bouldy is now on the coaching staff at Highbury.

While writing this, I thought of two old geezers who sit behind me at Highbury who reckon Jack Kelsey who played for Arsenal and Wales in the 50s and 60s was the best keeper they have ever seen, bar none. So if we were retiring shirts, the number 1 would already be gone. He set up and ran the club shop in Finsury Park for years before retiring and sadly died of cancer about 10 years ago.

And while we're at it, number 8 should be retired. Wrighty is the leading goal scorer of all time for the club after all.

All of the above mentioned players loved the club and and in the cases of Kelsey and Bould have carried on their affinity with Arsenal after their playing days finished. If you're going to be in the business of retiring shirts, these are the guys who deserve the honour.

[442]

Good discussion here. I'll have an editorial on this on www.arsenalamerica.com later today

[revelation]

This is why I wanted justification. I don't think any of the players you mention (excepting Kelsey because I don't know him) deserve to have their numbers retired. Sure Wright leads in goals but he had a career before and after Arsenal. Dixon may be tops in appearances but he has not been head and shoulders above the rest. He was a quality player as were Winterburn and Bould. All of whom I respect and revere.

Retiring a shirt requires some sort of distinguished service - kind of like winning the Congressional Medal of Honor here in the states (forgive me for not knowing the British equivalent but imagine a medal for the highest service to the UK). Adams has done that considering that he has captained the side since he was 21 (IIRC) and is known as Mr. Arsenal (which says something about a player). The standard has to be very, very high otherwise you end up giving out awards to the grunts that while willing to lay their lives on the line but don't stand out of a crowd of other grunts.

Although, I'm still opposed to the idea of retiring numbers, I just wanted to clarify the reasons for doing it here in the States.

[Ian Lozada]

Arsenal have a way of singling out the club's most exceptional servants. It's called a testimonial.

[michaec]

Originally posted by revelation
This is why I wanted justification. I don't think any of the players you mention (excepting Kelsey because I don't know him) deserve to have their numbers retired. Sure Wright leads in goals but he had a career before and after Arsenal. Dixon may be tops in appearances but he has not been head and shoulders above the rest. He was a quality player as were Winterburn and Bould. All of whom I respect and revere.

Retiring a shirt requires some sort of distinguished service - kind of like winning the Congressional Medal of Honor here in the states (forgive me for not knowing the British equivalent but imagine a medal for the highest service to the UK). Adams has done that considering that he has captained the side since he was 21 (IIRC) and is known as Mr. Arsenal (which says something about a player). The standard has to be very, very high otherwise you end up giving out awards to the grunts that while willing to lay their lives on the line but don't stand out of a crowd of other grunts.

Although, I'm still opposed to the idea of retiring numbers, I just wanted to clarify the reasons for doing it here in the States.

I'm not actually in favour of retiring shirts either, but this was my what if?. How do the players get nominated in the US to have their numbers retired? Is it someone at the club? Do the fans have a say in it?

FYI, the British equivalent of the Congressional Medal of Honor is called the Victoria Cross. The civilian equivalent is called the George Cross.

[Senor Askew]

Originally posted by michaec


I'm not actually in favour of retiring shirts either, but this was my what if?. How do the players get nominated in the US to have their numbers retired? Is it someone at the club? Do the fans have a say in it?


Agents.

[michaec]

Originally posted by Senor Askew


Agents.

Agents?!? What the f@&K have agents got to do with it?

[dwinkler]

Originally posted by michaec
Agents?!? What the f@&K have agents got to do with it?
They don't.

Originally posted by michaec
How do the players get nominated in the US to have their numbers retired? Is it someone at the club? Do the fans have a say in it?

The fans seem to have very little say in retiring numbers here - in fact, they have much less say in the operation of their sports teams than they do in England, but that's another topic.

There certainly aren't any set guidelines for retiring numbers - it's very subjective. In baseball, for example, most players with retired numbers are Hall of Famers who spent the majority of their careers with one team - that why the San Francisco Giante retired Babe Ruth's number 24, but the New York Mets didn't.

But then there's Wade Boggs, who was very good with Boston and the Yankees, but not that great with Tampa Bay at the end of his career. But which team retired his number? Tampa Bay.

Longevity gets some people in the club. Mel Harder, a good but not great pitcher with the Cleveland Indians, had his number 18 retired by the club in 1990. Why? Probably because he was with the team in one capacity or another from 1928 through 1963.

Pioneers are honored from time-to-time, the most famous example being Jackie Robinson, who broke baseball's color line in 1947. The Dodgers retired his number 42 in 1972, and 50 years after he broke into the majors Major League Baseball retired the number 42 for all its clubs, meaning nobody could ever wear that number again, unless they were currently wearing it.

Then there are the players who are memorialized because of tragedy. Yankees catcher Thurman Munson, who died in a plane crash during the season in 1979, had his number 15 retired by the Yanks that year. Korey Stringer, an offensive lineman with the Minnesota Vikings, had his number 77 retired after he died in training camp a few years ago.

Some teams - great franchises, in fact, like the Oakland Raiders and the Dallas Cowboys - have never retired any number.

For almost everything you ever wanted to know about retired numbers in major U.S. sports:
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0113737.html

My final thought on Adams: I personally don't care if his number gets retired or not. I made an argument for it elsewhere more as an exercise in debate than anything else. But, Tony Adams meets or exceeds almost any of the vague and elusive guidelines that U.S. sports franchises use to decide whether or not to retire a number. I agree 100 percent with Rev that Dixon, Bould, Winterburn, and even Vieira and Bergkamp do not.

[442]

Originally posted by dwinkler



There certainly aren't any set guidelines for retiring numbers - it's very subjective. In baseball, for example, most players with retired numbers are Hall of Famers who spent the majority of their careers with one team - that why the San Francisco Giante retired Babe Ruth's number 24, but the New York Mets didn't.



For the sake of factuality (is that a word?) I'll note hear that Winkler means Willie Mays, and not Babe Ruth.

While I'm against retiring jerseys, as though of you who read my editorial at www.arsenalamerica.com know, I agree that Adams would certainly be deserving. Dennis Bergkamp is a tricky one. He hasn't spent his entire career with Arsenal, nor is he our all-time leading scorer. However, being the best player to put on the jersey, EVER, does earn a lot of bonus points in a competition like this. On his best days with Arsenal it would be hard to argue that there was ever anyone more talented than DB10. And it's not like he played for Arsenal for three years, won a Premiership trophy and that was it. This will be his 8th season with Arsenal and he's been instrumental in helping us win TWO doubles. Did I also mention he's the greatest player we've ever had? So, if retiring numbers is something we're doing, then I would suggest Dennis has a reasonable shot. So does Ian Wright, but that's another argument.

[Senor Askew]

Originally posted by michaec


Agents?!? What the f@&K have agents got to do with it?

Haven't a clue.

Just having a bit of fun with the idea that agents seem to put everything in contracts these days.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if this were in some American sports starts contracts buried deep within the 113th page, paragraph 6, line Q.

Or something like that.

[dwinkler]

Originally posted by 442
For the sake of factuality (is that a word?) I'll note hear that Winkler means Willie Mays, and not Babe Ruth.
My bad. I started to go with the Babe Ruth analogy, using either the Red Sox or the (Boston) Braves, but I realized that baseball players didn't wear numbers when Ruth played with the Sox, and that I wasn't sure if I'd ever find anything that listed Boston Braves retired numbers, so I went with the easier Willie Mays analogy, except that I screwed it up. Didn't even spell Giants right.

[michaec]

An interesting twist to this debate, it seems no-one wants to wear Adams' shirt...

http://www.soccernet.com/england/news/2002/0812/20020812afcwengeradams.html

The players who've been offered it obviously don't think they could do it justice just yet.

[dwinkler]

Club website says number won't be retired:
http://www.arsenal.com/sportsappcontroller.jsp?command=setSelectedId&nextPage=displayheadline&type=com.sportapps.news.NewsItem&id=2907141

[Gunnersaurus]

Originally posted by dwinkler

For almost everything you ever wanted to know about retired numbers in major U.S. sports:
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0113737.html


I hadn't looked at such a list in quite a while. I used to be mildly against the retirement of the #6, and now I'm dead set against it.

I was surprised at the number of "(N+1)th man"* retirements. Nothing like a robust night at the gate when you let the fans pat themselves on the back.

Ray Bourke gets his number retired after only one year in Colorado? Probably to rub the Bruins fans' noses in it, I guess.

And how sad, indeed, that nobody will ever wear #455 for the Cleveland Indians ever, ever again. :(

-G. Rex

*- where N is the number of players playing the game at a given time.