Copa America - Not a Big Deal?

[dreadedbhoy]

Sorry, I'm just intrigued as an outsider looking in - admittedly I've not been paying much attention to US Soccer over the last couple of months, but why exactly are the United States treating Copa America second to the Gold Cup in importance? I'm sure there is a perfectly valid reason, but as someone who has always thought that CONCACAF and COMNEBOL should share a regional championship (I mean, I think it would correct the fact that Copa America can't compete with the Euros due to sheer lack of countries, wouldn't it?) at the least, I think its a shame that the U.S wont bring its A game - as success in the Copa America would surely be something to remember? I don't want to come across as an Eurosnob or whatever it is so please tell me bluntly how wrong I am for whatever reason :)

[dcole]

Sorry, I'm just intrigued as an outsider looking in - admittedly I've not been paying much attention to US Soccer over the last couple of months, but why exactly are the United States treating Copa America second to the Gold Cup in importance? I'm sure there is a perfectly valid reason, but as someone who has always thought that CONCACAF and COMNEBOL should share a regional championship (I mean, I think it would correct the fact that Copa America can't compete with the Euros due to sheer lack of countries, wouldn't it?) at the least, I think its a shame that the U.S wont bring its A game - as success in the Copa America would surely be something to remember? I don't want to come across as an Eurosnob or whatever it is so please tell me bluntly how wrong I am for whatever reason :)

I think we'll bring a pretty good squad to the Copa, so we're not exactly blowing it off. But to answer your question, the reasons for placing the Gold Cup higher in terms of importance include:

1. We are a CONCACAF team, and the Gold Cup is the CONCACAF championship. For that reason alone, we want to win it.

2. It also would not be PC to blow it off in favor of some other region's tournament.

3. Although we can get past any team other than Mexico without our A team, we need something close to an A team to beat Mexico, so why take chances?

4. Perhaps most importantly, victory in the Gold Cup gets us an automatic invite to the 2009 Confederations Cup in South Africa. That would be an invaluable World Cup tune-up.

[sabretarheel]

Well, first, it's not that we're not taking it seriously or anything, but the Gold Cup is deservedly our focus, as there is something at stake in that tourney, whereas, for us, there isn't in the Copa. If we win the Gold Cup, we're assured of a spot in the Confederations Cup in S. Africa the year before the World Cup, where we would play full-strength squads that are preparing for the World Cup as well-that would be a huge advantage in terms of preparation for us. Conversely, if we show our best in the Confederations Cup, we'll be able to pat ourselves on the back, but that's really about it.

Secondly, given the Gold Cup's importance with regards to above, it's difficult to call in our best players for two tournaments that ostensibly take up their entire summer and remove them from their club teams. So it seems, and rightly so in my opinion, that we're doing our very best to field a team that can win the Gold Cup, and then using the Copa to get our younger players (many of whom we hope will be able to carry us in the World Cup) the experience of the competition and atmosphere of a much more intense tourney.

Hope that helps :-)

[tab5g]

also throw in the fact (in addition to all the other excellent points outlined in posts #2 and #3) that the US is hosting the Gold Cup.

and the Gold Cup comes first on the calendar in summer 2007.

our confederation's championship has to be our priority. and it would be foolish, imo, for US Soccer to treat Copa America as a "bigger deal" than the Gold Cup.

but both (as long as they exist separately) can be big deals (even if some of our "best" and "top choice" players are unable to appear in both tournaments).

[ugaaccountant]

In addition the COPA tournament is not a FIFA match day for the US or Mexico so we can't demand release of players from any squad to play. We have to ask nicely for them, so most players will not be requested for both. This understanding was communicated from the beginning by the US soccer federation.

[dreadedbhoy]

Well, thanks for all the prompt replies. I suppose the "guest" factor does take some of the shine off entering the Copa - I still think someone should take advantage of combining the two tournaments at some stage, although I suppose there may be unforeseen difficulties in that. I just think that it would be in the South American's favour long term as well as I could see the tournament gaining more prestige than it does currently. That is for another discussion though, thanks for the information - good luck in both tournaments :)

[dsp87260]

Sorry, I'm just intrigued as an outsider looking in - admittedly I've not been paying much attention to US Soccer over the last couple of months, but why exactly are the United States treating Copa America second to the Gold Cup in importance? I'm sure there is a perfectly valid reason, but as someone who has always thought that CONCACAF and COMNEBOL should share a regional championship (I mean, I think it would correct the fact that Copa America can't compete with the Euros due to sheer lack of countries, wouldn't it?) at the least, I think its a shame that the U.S wont bring its A game - as success in the Copa America would surely be something to remember? I don't want to come across as an Eurosnob or whatever it is so please tell me bluntly how wrong I am for whatever reason :)

yeah....tell me how many people remember our SF (4th place) finish in the 1995 Copa America...how much credit are we given for that?

everything else already explained well by others...

[Metrogo]

yeah....tell me how many people remember our SF (4th place) finish in the 1995 Copa America...how much credit are we given for that?



Everyone, and I mean everyone who is a soccer fan of not of the johnny come lately variety thinks that tournament was a very big deal, and at that time we were given a lot of credit for that finish. It frankly did more to earn us respect at the time than the '94 world cup.

IF you just don't know, why comment?

[dsp87260]

Everyone, and I mean everyone who is a soccer fan of not of the johnny come lately variety thinks that tournament was a very big deal, and at that time we were given a lot of credit for that finish. It frankly did more to earn us respect at the time than the '94 world cup.

IF you just don't know, why comment?

I do know....I watched those games and have a few of them on tape....and sure we got some nice recognition for a little while, but you mention it around here and people don't have a clue what you're talking about or else say it's not a big deal. <shrugs>

I have a lot of pride in it to be honest....and those that ridicule/dismiss it probably wouldn't give us credit anyway for anything we did...but I think it's silly to expect any kind of credit/recognition from anything we do in it this year. If we get some, great....but it shouldn't be expected. The ones who are likely to give us credit probably already do to some extent and most others either won't notice or will dismiss it like usual.

Personally, I think too many people around here are too desperate for respect/recognition anyway.....and that's where a lot of the negativity towards the team and players comes from.

[ugaaccountant]

Everyone, and I mean everyone who is a soccer fan of not of the johnny come lately variety thinks that tournament was a very big deal, and at that time we were given a lot of credit for that finish. It frankly did more to earn us respect at the time than the '94 world cup.

IF you just don't know, why comment?

Exactly, I'm not a Johnny come lately but I was a kid then and even I realized we had a heck of a tournament that COPA. Cheers to Keller and the lads.

Of course, success in 95 doesn't help our team have respect now. A semi final finish then is good for awhile and did fuel the expectations we let down in 98, but to have lasting bragging rights we need to win such a tournament.

[blech]

In addition the COPA tournament is not a FIFA match day for the US or Mexico so we can't demand release of players from any squad to play. We have to ask nicely for them, so most players will not be requested for both. This understanding was communicated from the beginning by the US soccer federation.

Related to this, but perhaps stating it a little differently is the fact that many of the euro players will be starting camp at or around that time. Even if they were released by their team to join the U.S. for copa, it might be doing them a disservice as they fight to earn/retain positions. The US team will benefit most in the longrun from their playing more regularly during the season, so there is something to be said for not taking them away at a critical time that may inure to their individual detriment.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Because there is a conflict of interest between USSF and MLS, and MLS refuses to honor FIFA dates.

USSF does not want to take too many stars from MLS for both tourneys,even though it is not as clear as contended above that they can not if they want to so do.

However, the Donovan decision seems to say to me that someone, probably Bradley,is taking Copa more seriously than the previous lip service to the MLS season. Good for Bob...

[Metrogo]

I do know....I watched those games and have a few of them on tape....and sure we got some nice recognition for a little while,

Well yeah, do you actually believe that a 4th place finish in the copa should give us lasting recognition as a great football nation? Of course not.

Esp, in view of the fact of our poor performance in the WC, I think a trip to the semi finals would indeed be recognized as a solid performance by us.

Finally, I just don't know what to make of these "we don't need recognition/respect and anyone who does has some kind of problem" type arguments. I mean, you don't think the Italian players, and Italians generally, enjoyed the adulation and grudging respect from around the world from winning the WC? Everyone is supposed to be purely about doing it for themselves? We want to win, and partly because we want others to say, hey, they're pretty good. I think competition in every sport at the top level is about that. It's ego driven for the players. And for the fans, yes, we enjoy the vanquishing of our opponents. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

[GoDC]

For the guys we take some of the Copa games will be a better test that the 3 teams we have played so far in the Gold Cup. The young midfielders and defenders need to play some against real good teams.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

We want to win, and partly because we want others to say, hey, they're pretty good. I think competition in every sport at the top level is about that. It's ego driven for the players. And for the fans, yes, we enjoy the vanquishing of our opponents. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

I think we tend to overthink and overdebate issues like "long term development","getting ready for 2010", and "high level" competition.

Sometimes I just like to think the point of the games is to win, and the point of tourneys is to win the most games and the tourney.

[tab5g]

any recognition or respect that was gained at CA1995 was quickly erased and forgotten after WC1998.

whatever the results of CA2007, the US from this 4-year cycle (and in future years) will be remember by what it does (or does not achieve) at WC2010.

I like CA, but the WC is the biggest there is, and we must qualify for it.

I'm glad the USMNT is going to get the games in Venezuela, but I'm not thinking the results there are going to change a lot of opinions of what the USMNT is and what it can achieve.

CA can be a big deal for the USMNT, players, and fans of the game, but WCs will always be how soccer playing nations are defined.



note: if the US were a CONMEBOL member, I, as a fan, would of course have a stronger attachment to and a bigger sense of importance for CA than I currently do

[dsp87260]

Well yeah, do you actually believe that a 4th place finish in the copa should give us lasting recognition as a great football nation? Of course not.

Esp, in view of the fact of our poor performance in the WC, I think a trip to the semi finals would indeed be recognized as a solid performance by us.

Finally, I just don't know what to make of these "we don't need recognition/respect and anyone who does has some kind of problem" type arguments. I mean, you don't think the Italian players, and Italians generally, enjoyed the adulation and grudging respect from around the world from winning the WC? Everyone is supposed to be purely about doing it for themselves? We want to win, and partly because we want others to say, hey, they're pretty good. I think competition in every sport at the top level is about that. It's ego driven for the players. And for the fans, yes, we enjoy the vanquishing of our opponents. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

The part that I find wrong with it is all the wailing and teeth-gnashing done by so many posters here on BS who take every opportunity to slam the USSF, the USMNT, and the players for every perceived misstep and just the general lack of perspective that seems to permeate all of it.

[Martin Fischer]

The Washington Times is reporting the Brian Namoff, Bobby Boswell and Ben Olsen are being requested to get vaccinations for Venezuela.

[jhawkinva]

I know Benny has been playing well recently, but the only one of those 3 I want in a national team jersey from here on out is Boswell.

[Metrogo]

The part that I find wrong with it is all the wailing and teeth-gnashing done by so many posters here on BS who take every opportunity to slam the USSF, the USMNT, and the players for every perceived misstep and just the general lack of perspective that seems to permeate all of it.

Ok, but I'm not seeing how this statement is relevant to this thread.

Here's my teeth gnashing... MLS's schedule should accommodate summer tournaments . A good start would be to eliminate the all-star game and a round of the playoffs. Then we don't have the 1000 post fretting about landon donovan. As a former metrostars season ticket holder, it pissed me off to no end that the league continued while the best players were off on international duty. For the odd game? Fine. But this is ridiculous.

Then, we tell bocanegra and any euro player to go screw themselves, these are FIFA dates. Do we want to give a couple of players with particularly long euro schedules a break in the opening round of the gold cup, sure, maybe.

This just seems simple, and the fact that there must be fretting is totally down to the unnecessary MLS/USSF/FIFA conflicts. Copa america is a great opportunity not so much for "player development" but a serious opportunity to prove our quality. The Gold Cup just doesn't do that, save the game against mexico.

Finally, conmebol and Concacaf should get together on an even year Copa Americas, the 10 conmebol teams plus the hexagonal concacaf teams. Then have a mini- world cup between the euro, americas, africa, and asia champions. Eliminate a few WC qualifiers, and it can fit.

Everyone is happy, save the MLS fans who might have to sit through one extra cold weather game.