Dempsey's best position

[cyberthoth]

For two straight games Dempsey has played up top and in each he's scored. It may be time we rethink his optimal position.

Dempsey is tall and good with his head and is probably a pain in the a$$ to defend because of his unpredictability on the ball and his ability to suddenly appear in just the right spot. He's also a decent finisher when he get's there against any team other than China.
On the flipside he doesn't cross well and has only average speed for an international winger.

To me that alone he's a forward....and has only been playing on the wing because of the black hole we have at that position---unless you consider Donovan a RM.

I'd really like to see Dempsey paired with Johnson for one of these games...I think they're our two best forwards---(assuming Donovan is a mid)

[MLSNHTOWN]

I am leaning towards agreeing with you that he is a better forward than winger. When Sanchez @ Fulham ran him out at forward I was definitely intrigued and Clint has shown that he has a pretty decent skill set to bring to the position.

That being said, we don't exactly play with a traditional right winger and haven't through most all of Arena's tenure.

IMHO Dempsey's best position might be a #10 MF. Doesn't have to cross and his average speed doesn't hurt him. He can dribble well, has good vision and can score both from distance and by making good runs.

That being said the USMNT has Donovan and Bradley has already seemed to push us towards a twin central mid setup with Feilhaber and B. Bradley. So that limits our options of using Dempsey as a central mid.

Really Feilhaber is causing all the problems. He is mini-Reyna. His ideal partner is someone just like him (i.e. John O'brien) that way both can take turns going up and back. If he gets paired with a defensive mid (Bradley/Pablo) the team gets too defensive (like Reyna with Armas). If he is paired with an offensive mid (like Donovan or Dempsey) then the burden is on Feilhaber to hold down the defensive mid position by himself and I don't know that defensively he is up to it (Reyna at least had all that veteran guile and experience even though at times we missed our destroyer midfield types when it was just Reyna back there).

The problem that we have generally is that we also don't have a right winger like DMP. So Donovan/Dempsey have to cover there. Hence the debate, winger v. forward.

[nowherenova]

Let's use him up top again with Donovan on the right against a non-bunkering team and see what happens (might be a few matches from now).

[bryanocho]

I am leaning towards agreeing with you that he is a better forward than winger. When Sanchez @ Fulham ran him out at forward I was definitely intrigued and Clint has shown that he has a pretty decent skill set to bring to the position.

That being said, we don't exactly play with a traditional right winger and haven't through most all of Arena's tenure.

IMHO Dempsey's best position might be a #10 MF. Doesn't have to cross and his average speed doesn't hurt him. He can dribble well, has good vision and can score both from distance and by making good runs.

That being said the USMNT has Donovan and Bradley has already seemed to push us towards a twin central mid setup with Feilhaber and B. Bradley. So that limits our options of using Dempsey as a central mid.

Really Feilhaber is causing all the problems. He is mini-Reyna. His ideal partner is someone just like him (i.e. John O'brien) that way both can take turns going up and back. If he gets paired with a defensive mid (Bradley/Pablo) the team gets too defensive (like Reyna with Armas). If he is paired with an offensive mid (like Donovan or Dempsey) then the burden is on Feilhaber to hold down the defensive mid position by himself and I don't know that defensively he is up to it (Reyna at least had all that veteran guile and experience even though at times we missed our destroyer midfield types when it was just Reyna back there).

The problem that we have generally is that we also don't have a right winger like DMP. So Donovan/Dempsey have to cover there. Hence the debate, winger v. forward.

This is intriguing. I think you're point about Feilhaber ~ Reyna is a good one, but it points out a major problem with Dempsey in the #10 spot. Right now Demps seems a little to full of his ability to dribble. He has a very troubling tendency to dribble far too much in the middle of the field and to turn it over. Lots of putting his head down and taking on two and three players. Taking those kind of chances is a great thing (in the attacking third). Doing it in the middle of the park just means that the D-mid type behind him spends their whole time cleaning up Dempsey's messes.

One thing I'll say about Dempsey in that spot is that he's really good at ghosting in behind plays and popping up in the right spot. Given adequate defensive cover and some seasoning to know when to control his dribbling, you may be right about his best position.

[nobody]

I think Dempsey at forward is worth a shot.

He scores goals, doesn't play much defense, takes lots of chances with the ball. Sounds like a fit. I wanna see it more and with different combinations before saying its a done deal, but its definitely something to be considered.

[galperin]

This is an intriguing question.

Personally, I see Dempsey succeeding in the following spots because it allows him to move in an out from wide to more central throughout the game:

Right wing in a 4-3-3
One of 2 a-mids in a 4-4-2 box midfield
RM in a 4-5-1I don't see him being as effective in these because he is more likely to be stuck along the touchline:

RM in a 3-5-2
RM in a flat or diamond 4-4-2Thoughts?

[cyberthoth]

I think Dempsey at attacking mid is a serious mistake...I mean it works in MLS because he's so much better than most everyone else....but his passing skills are not that good.

[deron]

Keep him near the goal!

There's a terrible epidemic in US soccer of moving scorers away from the goal.

[cc-atl]

Always seems hard to me to fit our US players into traditional postitions. Dempsey is a good example of that. Little slow and not a great crosser so RM does not seem perfect. Does not pass well enough to be A-Mid. Certainly not a target forward and a little slow and not a great shot so Forward is not perfect either.

He is just crafty and seems to be in the right spot at the right time. I think forward is the best bet. Maybe a little similar to Inzaghi?

[oldguyfc]

Why not play him as the attacking mid in a 4-4-2 with Johnson and Donovan up top? Feilhaber goes out wide right, he's got the pace, Beasley left. This, of course, all depends on Ricardo Clark being ahead of Michael Bradley on the depth chart in the midfield.:cool:

[cc-atl]

Why not play him as the attacking mid in a 4-4-2 with Johnson and Donovan up top? Feilhaber goes out wide right, he's got the pace, Beasley left. This, of course, all depends on Ricardo Clark being ahead of Michael Bradley on the depth chart in the midfield.:cool:

I think he would be fine at running at the D but sometimes you want your A-Mid to hit a forward that is making a run or play it out wide for a cross. I think Dempsey may be too one dimesional (put head down and run at goal) to be an effective A-Mid.

[oldguyfc]

I think he would be fine at running at the D but sometimes you want your A-Mid to hit a forward that is making a run or play it out wide for a cross. I think Dempsey may be too one dimesional (put head down and run at goal) to be an effective A-Mid.

Maybe, but I think it's worth a shot at putting our best 11 on the field. His cheeky-deeky dribbling may be a down side, but, with the right mix on the field, that may mysteriously go away.

[Bob Morocco]

A: Crashing the far post.

[juveeer]

I think the question has to be considered in light of Donovan's presence on the team as well, since I think Dempsy showed in the China game that his best spot is probably the Donovan withdrawn forward spot in the 4-4-1-1 Arena/Bradley have been using.

However, when they are both on the field, both can't play there.

One solution is to move Donovan to wide right, but that is not Donovan's best spot. It takes away his dynamism which is more effective in the middle behind the striker(s).

Unfortunately, Dempsey has the some of the same issues. In fact, IMHO they are worse with Demsey out wide than for Donovan at least will play SOME defense.

if you put Dempsey wide right, you immediately have a hole there defensively cause he runs all over the field popping up in unexpected places (this can be good cause he scores a lot of goals that way, or bad cause he leaves huge gaps defensively that the rest of the team has to cover).

So, if BB is going to play both of those guys, (1) Bradley has to use either a 3-5-2 (something he has shown no inclination to do) with Donovan at a point of the 5 man midfield behind the strikers or a type of 4-3-3 (a kind of 4 -3-1-2), or (2) Landon has to sacrifice and go wide. Dempsey is a real liability out there cause he doesn't play defense, is positionally undisciplined and can't cross.

Perhaps with Heydude at RB he could play Dempsey wide occasionally, cause Frankie is a commited defender and has the speed to cover back, but BB has a bit of a "round peg, square hole" problem trying to play both of those players. Cause he probably still needs a real striker on the field.

I don't think he can play with Dempsey up top and LD in the hole in the 4-4-1-1, but it might be worth taking a look at that in a friendly for a half. If THAT would work, he could balance the team a bit better. We seem to have a bit of young talent coming through in midfield and that would open up a place for one of them or allow him to play a true defensive middie along with DMB, Bennie F and his son.

This is going to be an interesting couple of years of transition. In the China game, Dempsey kind of played the LD role behind the strikers with Feilhaber taking the corners and frees. That worked pretty nicely.

One thing I think Bradley should do NOW though is to think seriously about letting Bennie take the corners and put LD in the "mixer" somewhere for finishing. I think Feilhaber's delivery is better overall, and Landon, when playing well, is a good finisher.

It is the defense I am most worried about though. Our CB's have looked unbalanced and out of position a lot the last few games. Boca is not really a CB IMHO and Gooch is in some sort of funk. Conrad is injured and not really the answer either IMHO, so this is an area we need to address. The FB's look a bit better staffed with potential, but I don't see a lot of decent CB's in the system. Haven't seen Parkhurst play at this level, We may now, but it will most likely be Demerit that takes over for Gooch and I believe he is already in his 30's. Not a long term solution.

Having said that, the World Champs are in the same boat. They don't have any real replacements for Nestavarro either. Seems like good CBs are a bit of an endangered species.

[Bruce S]

Always seems hard to me to fit our US players into traditional postitions. Dempsey is a good example of that. Little slow and not a great crosser so RM does not seem perfect. Does not pass well enough to be A-Mid. Certainly not a target forward and a little slow and not a great shot so Forward is not perfect either.

He is just crafty and seems to be in the right spot at the right time. I think forward is the best bet. Maybe a little similar to Inzaghi?

where did you get the slow stuff? Dempsey is quite fast. Nobody could consider him slow. In the WC he beat the Ghana defense in a flat out sprint.

[aaronbrown]

Really Feilhaber is causing all the problems. He is mini-Reyna. His ideal partner is someone just like him (i.e. John O'brien)

Actually Feilhaber is more like John O'Brien. And how soon we forget how raw JOB was when Steve Sampson brought him as an 21 year old alternate in '98. Regardless, Feilhaber was not the problem.

[NYC ugly]

He belongs on the bench! Jerking around the best US player to an unfamiliar role to accomodate Dempsey is just plain CRAZY!:confused:

[blackjack]

Move Donovan out wide right and play Dempsey as the withdrawn forward. This fits both of their skill sets best. Donovan is faster and defends better, two things that Clint lacks at RM. Donovan also has a better cross. Dempsey is more aggressive and has better positioning in the box, which Donovan lacks at forward. Dempsey would not have passed the ball to Ben Olsen with two minutes to go against Ghana.

The team, when everyone is available, should look like this:

-----------Howard------------
Spector--Demerit--Boca--Bornstein
--------Mastro----Bradley------
Donovan----------------Beasley
-----------Dempsey-----------
-----------Johnson------------

[Walter3000]

Move Donovan out wide right and play Dempsey as the withdrawn forward. This fits both of their skill sets best. Donovan is faster and defends better, two things that Clint lacks at RM. Donovan also has a better cross. Dempsey is more aggressive and has better positioning in the box, which Donovan lacks at forward. Dempsey would not have passed the ball to Ben Olsen with two minutes to go against Ghana.

The team, when everyone is available, should look like this:

-----------Howard------------
Spector--Demerit--Boca--Bornstein
--------Mastro----Bradley------
Donovan----------------Beasley
-----------Dempsey-----------
-----------Johnson------------


Funny meeting up with you over here, we both must be crazy. I like the shout for Demerit when all is even. Its funny how quick people are to run down our forwards and constantly make excuses for Gooch. The guy can be a unpredictable train wreck. And with Boca prone to mistakes its a scary partnership. Id realy like to see Parkhurst get a run he seems like a solid positioning smart defender. We really lack speed back there though.

I agree about Donovan I said it in another thread. His speed, and crossing, makes him a better player for the wing than Dempsey.

I still think we should give our strikers a chance to pair up for 90 at least once, but it wont happen.

[Derrida]

He belongs on the bench! Jerking around the best US player to an unfamiliar role to accomodate Dempsey is just plain CRAZY!:confused:

Uh...

If Donovan is the best player, which I'm not completely convinced of, then Dempsey isn't far behind. They're both quite good and it's hardly the most pressing problem figuring out how to move them both around. I see strengths to both of them on the wing and both of them at forward.

I was less convinced about Dempsey at forward before the Guatemala game, but I thought he was really fantastic in the role. I've also been less than impressed with Donovan there, and (for 2/3 of the game) I thought he was pretty solid on the wing. I'd like to see that combo again, maybe against a different style of play.

Ultimately, one of the nice things about both these guys is that, while they have weaknesses in their many possible roles, they have the flexibility to make the changes. I don't think there is any "perfect" lineup simply because of that. It depends too much on context.

It's also why one of my only concerns about Bradley is his strategic ability. This team does not have a "style" - their quality can vary dramatically based on the flow of the match and the opposition, and I think a big part of that is putting players in roles that might be good in one case and bad in another.