Ha Ho He Hertha BSC! 07/08 Thread [R]

[Yggdrasil]

Why is that?? Why shouldn't it be Dortmund, Schalke, Bremen or Hamburg?

Because they are the club from the capital??
In theory: yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but London has always about 5 football clubs in the EPL. If you look to England, Spain, Italy capital clubs are usually among the top contenders for the leaguge title every season.

Not so Hertha let alone the other Berlin clubs. Ok, maybe Union will get promoted next season to the second league or at least to the new third league.

Anyway of course this is the result of 40 years of German partition and the partition of Berlin. Since Germany had almost always federal systems and always multiple urban centers the isolated Berlin lost quickly positions in several areas to Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Cologne and other cities.

Send him Dortmund's way, please! LOL!! ;)
You can get Dieter Hoeneß if we get Allofs and Schaaf from Bremen. :)

[Real Corona]

Thanks alot. I understand.

My German is terrible, I don't know how the Germans put up with it.



When I am in Germany, I have to lie and say I am from Estonia in order to get them to speak German with me. Even then they try and practice their english. That's why I love old people from East Germany, they never learned english and are more than happy to have a conversation with you.

[The Old Lady Hertha]

Send him Dortmund's way, please! LOL!! ;)

You want Dieter??? :eek:

[footyfan1]

You want Dieter??? :eek:

I'd even take him over Zorc.....

[footyfan1]

In theory: yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but London has always about 5 football clubs in the EPL. If you look to England, Spain, Italy capital clubs are usually among the top contenders for the leaguge title every season.

Not so Hertha let alone the other Berlin clubs. Ok, maybe Union will get promoted next season to the second league or at least to the new third league.

Anyway of course this is the result of 40 years of German partition and the partition of Berlin. Since Germany had almost always federal systems and always multiple urban centers the isolated Berlin lost quickly positions in several areas to Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Cologne and other cities.

You think those other clubs are great because they are from capital cities?

Real became great because they had the crown behind them for decades. Without that, they could Atletico, Rayo Vallacano, or Getafe.

Look at PSG. They're fighting relegation. Being the "capital team" isn't helping them one bit.

Even here in Germany. Bonn was the capital, but Frankfurt, as the financial center, was pretty much the real capital. What happened to Eintracht? How did Munich become the rulers of all German football?? Why did Dortmund, Leverkusen, Hamburg and Bremen become their challengers??

Italy. Why aren't the Rome teams the rulers? Why are Juventus, Inter and AC Milan usually the top dogs?

I think it is because the city doesn't matter. Whomever has the best management or the best backing will usually rise to the top.

And in Germany, that is not Hertha. It wasn't before The Wall went up and it isn't afterwards.....

[Yggdrasil]

You think those other clubs are great because they are from capital cities?
No.

Real became great because they had the crown behind them for decades.
And that did happen because they came from the capital.

Without that, they could Atletico, Rayo Vallacano, or Getafe.
Still Atletico and Getafe are in the Primera Divsiona which proves my point.

Look at PSG. They're fighting relegation. Being the "capital team" isn't helping them one bit.
PSG is from the Netherlands. I talked about the big leagues which have a completely different financial structure than the leagues in smaller countries. In the bigger leagues it is much more important to get high investments, expsensive TV contracts etc.. This is the reason that in England, Italy and Spain capital clubs are always among the top contenders because the infrastructure they are based upon was created in the past decades.

Even here in Germany. Bonn was the capital, but Frankfurt, as the financial center, was pretty much the real capital. What happened to Eintracht?
??? I never claimed that being capital in one sector of the economy is enough to create a top football club?

What I said was that because of the German partition for 40 years Berlin could not develop the base for top football clubs like other European capitals like London, Rome or Madrid.

Given the status and standing of Berlin in Germany and Europe pre-1933 it is pretty sure that without all that crap in between Berlin would have at least one top club because it would have the money and would have attracted investors and the right people.

How did Munich become the rulers of all German football?? Why did Dortmund, Leverkusen, Hamburg and Bremen become their challengers??
??? You completely miss my point again. What I was saying was that without the WWII and the partition Berlin would have at least one top club for the reasons I already mentioned. Because there was no real capital (Bonn) the money and the people went elsewhere in those decades and it was a fight were Munich prevailed.

I never said that there would be no other good clubs. Although Leverkusen is not a real challenger and never will be one. :p Dortmund was a challenger some years ago. Hamburg was in the 70ties. These days they are only wannabes like Schalke only much worse (on the pitch). Only Bremen is a constant real challenger in the last years.

Italy. Why aren't the Rome teams the rulers? Why are Juventus, Inter and AC Milan usually the top dogs?
Again you miss my point. Again I never said that there are no other good clubs. I only said that in England, Spain and Italy capital clubs are usually among the top clubs. And that is certainly true. Although in Italy Turin and Milan are richer than Rome making them also a kind of capitals which again proves my point.

If you take out the odd corporate clubs like Leverkusen and the like the real constant top clubs come usually from rich big cities and normally the capitals are the richest. But that doesn't apply to Berlin because of the history.

Of course bad management can ruin potential like in the case of Frankfurt. But there is a difference with wasting chances and never having a real chance.

I think it is because the city doesn't matter. Whomever has the best management or the best backing will usually rise to the top.
What you need is the best backing in terms of money. And that is the major problem of Hertha which has its roots in the isolation of Berlin. Not only because of the lacking investment in the city in those years but also because a large part of the fan base couldn't go to the games after 1961. A whole generation of fans was lost.

And in Germany, that is not Hertha. It wasn't before The Wall went up and it isn't afterwards.....
I never said it was before the wall went up. What I said Berlin had pre-1933 the same potential to develop top clubs like London, Madrid or Rome.

[Cazlon]

We learn it from the moment of our birth...


I think Hertha has actually got a really good squad and should be able to compete for the UI or UEFA Cup with it. Berlin should actually be the team that forces Bayern the most.

That is a vast exaggeration. Hertha has a couple good players and promissing talents, but the current league position does indeed suit the squad. There are a lot of major holes. Both wings as well as missing competition on all positions.

That's why I think we'll see about 10 to 15 players come and go in the summer again.

[footyfan1]

And that did happen because they came from the capital.

That happened because they were the club the crown got behind. They didn't have to be from Madrid.


Still Atletico and Getafe are in the Primera Divsiona which proves my point.

From where I sit, that proves nothing. Atletico is well backed. For many years by a man (Jesus Gil y Gil) who had nothing to do with Madrid when he made his rise. Hell, he was mayor of Marbella for part of the time he ran Atletico.

Getafe. Outstanding management. They don't even get any support from Madrid and they don't want it. How do I know that? From talking to a group of their fans before their UEFA Cup Quarter-Final with Bayern last week.


PSG is from the Netherlands. I talked about the big leagues which have a completely different financial structure than the leagues in smaller countries. In the bigger leagues it is much more important to get high investments, expsensive TV contracts etc.. This is the reason that in England, Italy and Spain capital clubs are always among the top contenders because the infrastructure they are based upon was created in the past decades.

PSG is Paris Saint-Germain

That's not the Netherlands the last time I checked.

I believe you have them confused with PSV Eindhoven.




I never claimed that being capital in one sector of the economy is enough to create a top football club?

What I said was that because of the German partition for 40 years Berlin could not develop the base for top football clubs like other European capitals like London, Rome or Madrid.

Given the status and standing of Berlin in Germany and Europe pre-1933 it is pretty sure that without all that crap in between Berlin would have at least one top club because it would have the money and would have attracted investors and the right people.


??? You completely miss my point again. What I was saying was that without the WWII and the partition Berlin would have at least one top club for the reasons I already mentioned. Because there was no real capital (Bonn) the money and the people went elsewhere in those decades and it was a fight were Munich prevailed.


I got what you meant with all of that. I just still disagree with you. Yes, the partition did hurt Hertha to a certain extent, but not that much. West Berlin was still a bustling place as I remember it. Of course, I only went there three times before The Wall fell. West Berlin certainly had the means to support a top football club. Hertha or TeBe just didn't have the know how.


I never said that there would be no other good clubs.

I never said you said that either......


Although Leverkusen is not a real challenger and never will be one. :p

Disagree. Leverkusen was and will be again in the near future. They could just never finish the job.

Remember, they are still the last German team to appear in a Champions' League Final.



Dortmund was a challenger some years ago.

And could be again, but like Hertha, their management is their own worst enemy.


Hamburg was in the 70ties. These days they are only wannabes like Schalke only much worse (on the pitch). Only Bremen is a constant real challenger in the last years.

Hamburg won two Bundesliga titles and the Champions' League in the 80s. HSV is on the right track. It's just a shame they are going to lose at least Stevens and van der Vaart after this season.

Schalke? See Leverkusen. Just can't get the job done.

Bremen? More like HSV than you know. Sure, they've won a title recently, but what else have they done??


Again you miss my point. Again I never said that there are no other good clubs. I only said that in England, Spain and Italy capital clubs are usually among the top clubs. And that is certainly true. Although in Italy Turin and Milan are richer than Rome making them also a kind of capitals which again proves my point.

No, it doesn't. You made it seem that capital clubs have some type of advantage. You made a general statement and in many cases, that just isn't true.

Here, you even try to point to something that disproves your point and say it proves your point.

Turin and Milan are not 'richer' cities than Rome. I've been to all of them recently. None of them are "de facto" capitals as you try to claim. I don't have to say anything else.

You just made my point with a false statement trying to prove your point.

If you take out the odd corporate clubs like Leverkusen and the like the real constant top clubs come usually from rich big cities and normally the capitals are the richest. But that doesn't apply to Berlin because of the history.

Of course bad management can ruin potential like in the case of Frankfurt. But there is a difference with wasting chances and never having a real chance.


The money in a city has nothing to do with how a club will fare. It's backing and management, I don't care where you are situated.

If your logic were the case, 1. FC Koln would not be in the 2. Liga for as long as they have been. Fortuna Duesseldorf would certainly not be in the freakin' third division. Those two cities have money coming out of their asses.

Bad management is why those clubs are where they are.....


Eintracht Frankfurt wouldn't have bounced between the top divisions the way they have recently. And you made my point once again. Bad management.


What you need is the best backing in terms of money. And that is the major problem of Hertha which has its roots in the isolation of Berlin. Not only because of the lacking investment in the city in those years but also because a large part of the fan base couldn't go to the games after 1961. A whole generation of fans was lost.

What are you talking about?? Do you know how much money was in West Berlin during the time the wall was up? You write like it was a poor place.

In the first few years after the war, sure, things were hard, but as the German economy began to grow, West Berlin was definitely one of the top beneficiaries. The allies knew the importance of getting Berlin back on her feet.

Do you remember Dortmund's major backer during their glory years of the 1990s, "Die Continentale??"

It was and is a Berlin-based company. And they didn't just get there in the 90s.

And they went back to Hertha when Hertha finally got promoted back to the 1. Liga. Why didn't they support Hertha before??

Simple. Why would they back a club that had been involved in scandal (bribery) and had bad management??

Hertha wasn't affected as much by lack of money or support in West Berlin as it was by scandal and financial mis-management.


I never said it was before the wall went up. What I said Berlin had pre-1933 the same potential to develop top clubs like London, Madrid or Rome.

Oh really?? Tell us how? There wasn't much money anywhere in Germany during that period.

Why? Germany had been pretty much shunned by the rest of Europe after WWI.

How do you think Hitler came to power??? He got Germans to believe in themselves once again. He told them what they wanted to hear. That they were superior to everyone who'd shunned them and would rise again under his leadership.

Maybe we're arguing over a few little points or a small misunderstanding.

But you made some comments there that are completely false. Your opinion is your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.

However, some of the things you believe seem to be wrong. I don't want to fight about it, I just wanted to point that out.

[Yggdrasil]

That happened because they were the club the crown got behind. They didn't have to be from Madrid.
Of course they had to be because the royal family were the reason Madrid is the capital.

From where I sit, that proves nothing. Atletico is well backed. For many years by a man (Jesus Gil y Gil) who had nothing to do with Madrid when he made his rise. Hell, he was mayor of Marbella for part of the time he ran Atletico.
But that's exactly the point I made. He had nothing to do with Madrid but nevertheless he choosed to support a Madrid club and not a club from Marbella. Of course that is not because Gil y Gil wanted to do something out of generosity but because he was first of all a businessman and a (corrupt) politican.

Getafe. Outstanding management. They don't even get any support from Madrid and they don't want it. How do I know that? From talking to a group of their fans before their UEFA Cup Quarter-Final with Bayern last week.
??? Again you keep missing the point I made. I never claimed that being in the capital city itself is enough to get in the first leagues. What I stated was that capital cities usually provide the right environment to get it done more easily. Of course Getafe has better conditions to get investments close to Madrid than some village club.

PSG is Paris Saint-Germain

That's not the Netherlands the last time I checked.

I believe you have them confused with PSV Eindhoven.
Yes, sorry, but I didn't talk about France either for a reason. Their league still has not the same standing like England, Spain, Italy and Germany. Although on paper (TV money etc.) the Bundesliga is behind them these days their top players still move to those classic four "big" leagues.

I got what you meant with all of that. I just still disagree with you. Yes, the partition did hurt Hertha to a certain extent, but not that much. West Berlin was still a bustling place as I remember it. Of course, I only went there three times before The Wall fell. West Berlin certainly had the means to support a top football club. Hertha or TeBe just didn't have the know how.
No, I'm sorry but that's just untrue. West Berlin was for political reasons a heavily subsidized city with a close business and political culture cementing that status quo which later caused the big finance scandal. These circles had big influence also over Hertha. This was possible because of the isolated island Berlin was investors had little interest to come to Berlin except if they were subsidized. And to get a share of those subsidies you needed the "right" political connections. This culture prevented the development of a real free market in many areas. So when outside money started to went into football clubs it never went into Hertha let alone TeBe.

You cannot argue that it was because of bad management since when the investors are interested to invest in a club they seek their own management anyway. But that didn't happen because of the above described situation which had its roots in the partition.

Disagree. Leverkusen was and will be again in the near future. They could just never finish the job.

Remember, they are still the last German team to appear in a Champions' League Final.
A real top contender is a club who constantly season after season comes close to win the league. Let's face it. In the Bundesliga it is only Bayern who have proven it over decades.

Bremen? More like HSV than you know. Sure, they've won a title recently, but what else have they done??
Well, they are the only club which reached the champions league in the past four seasons (since 2003/04). Not even Bayern did that. This is very important because of the money it generates for the club. Also they always challenged Bayern in every season. All the other clubs you mentioned did well in some odd season but sucked in other seasons. For that reason I think Bremen is the only club right now to become a real challenger.

No, it doesn't. You made it seem that capital clubs have some type of advantage. You made a general statement and in many cases, that just isn't true.
?? Of course it is true. Of course capital clubs in the top leagues have it easier to attract investors than some clubs from smaller cities. You can see it almost everywhere. I never said that clubs from other rich cities cannot have top clubs. I just said that under other (normal European) circumstances (i.e. without partition) Berlin would certainly at least have one top club like in England, Spain, Italy. I have not seen any argument from you which would disprove it except that you claim it is because of bad management only. But Hertha never received such big investmensts over the years unlike some "village clubs" like Leverkusen and Wolfsburg for example.

Turin and Milan are not 'richer' cities than Rome. I've been to all of them recently.
Oh c'mon. I have been to these cities either. But visting those cities as a tourist is complete meaningless here. Both Turin and Milan (and much of northern Italy) have a higher per capita income than Rome and southern Italy in general. Italy has a strong north-south divide. In fact much stronger than our west-east divide. Though Rome is not part of the southern Mezzogiorno it is closer to it and not part of the rich Padania in the North. In fact the North subsides Rome. That is the reason they have parties like the Lega Nord Padania who wanted the separation of the rich Padania from the poor south since decades (and they still ask for devolution).

The situation of Rome is in fact somewhat similar to that of Berlin in financial terms although for other reasons.

Anyway, whatever you consider Turin and Milan also Rome has two top contender clubs in Serie A. AS Rome and Lazio Rome.

Which again proves my original point. I was always writing about top contenders not about champions.

The money in a city has nothing to do with how a club will fare. It's backing and management, I don't care where you are situated.
Sorry, but this is just nonsense. Money gets backing and money gets other money and money gets management. "Der Teufel scheisst immer auf den grössten Haufen". This is basic economy. Of course if you are backed by a millionaire from SAP or a corporation like Bayer or VW you can reach the Bundesliga also with village clubs. But otherwise you have to come from richer urban area - in the long run.

I don't even understand why you want to dispute that because it is so obvious.

If your logic were the case, 1. FC Koln would not be in the 2. Liga for as long as they have been. Fortuna Duesseldorf would certainly not be in the freakin' third division. Those two cities have money coming out of their asses.
NO. Again, you keep putting arguments into my mouth. I already answered that above when you asked the same thing about Frankfurt.

I never claimed that being coming from a rich city is enough to create a top football club. Of couse it is always possible to screw it up.

What I said was that because of the German partition for 40 years Berlin had no real chance to develop the base for top football clubs like other European capitals like London, Rome or Madrid.

Given the status and standing of Berlin in Germany and Europe pre-1933 it is pretty sure that without all that crap in between Berlin would have at least one top club because it would have the money and would have attracted investors and the right people.

What are you talking about?? Do you know how much money was in West Berlin during the time the wall was up? You write like it was a poor place.

In the first few years after the war, sure, things were hard, but as the German economy began to grow, West Berlin was definitely one of the top beneficiaries. The allies knew the importance of getting Berlin back on her feet.
Berlin was a poor place (and still is compared to Munich, Frankfurt and Hamburg). Not poor like a 3rd world country or something but poor for German standards. I was born in Berlin and my whole family is from Berlin (East and West). You confuse subsidies with economic power generating tax revenue and spending power in the population.

If you claim Berlin could have provided the same environment for a top club like Munich or Hamburg, I'm sorry, but then you have no real clue what you are talking about here. The chance was not even close.

Do you remember Dortmund's major backer during their glory years of the 1990s, "Die Continentale??"

It was and is a Berlin-based company. And they didn't just get there in the 90s.
They kept only their headquarters there and only because of subsidies. Way more (and I mean way more) companies left Berlin. Berlin lost almost all of the industry jobs during the partition.

And they went back to Hertha when Hertha finally got promoted back to the 1. Liga. Why didn't they support Hertha before??

Simple. Why would they back a club that had been involved in scandal (bribery) and had bad management??
LOL. If that would be true the BVB would never ever get some sponsor again given the much bigger financial scandal Dortmund had. Also there were plenty of chances for investors to replace the management.

The problem why Hertha didn't found the investors was that investors invest to make money. And in the Berlin environment there was not much money to be made.

Hertha wasn't affected as much by lack of money or support in West Berlin as it was by scandal and financial mis-management.
?? Because you say so? Again Hertha never had the same scandals and financial mis-managment Dortmund later had.

The scandals Hertha had were cause because it was possible for shady people to take it over in the special Berlin environment caused by "island culture" I described above. Which was a result of the partition.

Oh really?? Tell us how? There wasn't much money anywhere in Germany during that period.
??? I was talking about the 20ties. Please google up the 20ties (before the stock market crash). Berlin was a booming city in the late 20ties with lots of American investment. Which later was a reason Germany was so bitterly affected by the stock market crash. Which again was the reason for the economic crisis and the main reason Hitler came to power.

I do not want to start a dicussion about history here but please do not mix up the timeline.

Still you have not shown anywhere that coming from a capital city is not an advantages in a country with a big league. You only show exceptions from the rule. But I never said that coming from a capital or rich city is enough to become a top club. I only said that you have way better chances to become a top club. And in most countries capitals are the richest cities. Unlike in Germany (and Italy to some extent).

[footyfan1]

Dude, I'm agreeing to disagree. This can go on and on and I just don't have the time.

[The Old Lady Hertha]

Decent 1-1 draw with Bochum. Decent because Pante and Raffa didn't play. Not good because Lima missed 2 golden chances and Mineiro unluckily hit the post in the 2nd half with a great header. Oh well.

[footyfan1]

TOLH!!


Why didn't you tell me this man??!! (http://www.herthabsc.de/index.php?id=15702&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=3123&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=252&cHash=bf9e898558)


I got the word from the player himself!! :cool:

[The Old Lady Hertha]

lol! I made a thread on it on Yanks Abroad... :p

When did he tell you he was back?

[footyfan1]

lol! I made a thread on it on Yanks Abroad... :p

When did he tell you he was back?


Just last week.

[Real Corona]

So what hope is there left for this season? I don't think Hertha will be relegated, although they aren't completely safe. So basically they are just playing for their survival?

[The Old Lady Hertha]

Yea pretty much. Didn't expect much from this season, although I thought we'd at least be better than we are.

[Cazlon]

Another point won vs. the Rothosen. Horrible, horrible game though. Matches like this one should be labeled crime against humanity.

On a positive note Mineiro and Lukasz Pi...... performed very well again. I'm not a fan of the Brazilian, but in his current shape he should be handed a new contract. Lukasz is developing very nicely, this kid really has potential.

Much better knowledge of the game than, say, Ebert.

[The Old Lady Hertha]

I thought Pisczcek was bad...not awful. Thats reserved for Lima and Ebert :rolleyes:

That was a horrendous match...at least Chahed also had a decent game and Drobny was very good.

[footyfan1]

Another point won vs. the Rothosen. Horrible, horrible game though. Matches like this one should be labeled crime against humanity.

On a positive note Mineiro and Lukasz Pi...... performed very well again. I'm not a fan of the Brazilian, but in his current shape he should be handed a new contract. Lukasz is developing very nicely, this kid really has potential.

Much better knowledge of the game than, say, Ebert.


Actually, I thought it was a point gifted to you, not a point "won." But a point is a point. :o

[serbov]

After watching the match and not only tonights match i could draw a conclusion that Three Yellow Cards is your weakest link, and one of the reasons why your defansive line is full of holes like Swiss cheese.You should replace him with someone younger, for the next season.Of course it is obvious that Gojko is your best player in the absence of Panetelic.