Bit controversial this one

[HeartandSoul]

I've been waiting for another cheeky response......................

-Even though it's pointless, calling any dead ball specialist over-rated is a moot point "It's getting Beckham paid itnt it"

-France reaching the finals of WC 06 and Greece winning the 2004 Euro prove what scoring on a dead ball can accomplish.

-I'm also sure that both Pirlo's victories in the WC and CL will be enough to console all the insecurities and worries he must be living through.

[Seaside Mafia]

I've been waiting for another cheeky response......................

-Even though it's pointless, calling any dead ball specialist over-rated is a moot point "It's getting Beckham paid itnt it"

-France reaching the finals of WC 06 and Greece winning the 2004 Euro prove what scoring on a dead ball can accomplish.

-I'm also sure that both Pirlo's victories in the WC and CL will be enough to console all the insecurities and worries he must be living through.

In much the same way that champions league medals were of great comfort to Djimi Traore and David May.

[jpick]

I've been waiting for another cheeky response......................

-Even though it's pointless, calling any dead ball specialist over-rated is a moot point "It's getting Beckham paid itnt it"

-France reaching the finals of WC 06 and Greece winning the 2004 Euro prove what scoring on a dead ball can accomplish.

-I'm also sure that both Pirlo's victories in the WC and CL will be enough to console all the insecurities and worries he must be living through.

yeah, but the thing is, he is much more than set pieces. he isn't just useful for dead balls

In much the same way that champions league medals were of great comfort to Djimi Traore and David May.

yes, poor players can win nice medals, but can poor players be vital for multiple important medals for club (domestic and europe), country, u21, olympics, etc.?
that is where traore, may, and others would fall by the wayside

[Seaside Mafia]

yeah, but the thing is, he is much more than set pieces. he isn't just useful for dead balls



yes, poor players can win nice medals, but can poor players be vital for multiple important medals for club (domestic and europe), country, u21, olympics, etc.?
that is where traore, may, and others would fall by the wayside

You're right, poor players can't. But average players like Pirlo can. As also illustrated by Sammy Lee's track record:

Honours
Liverpool
Charity Shield: 1979, 1980, 1982; Runner-up: 1983, 1984
Football League Cup: 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984
European Cup: 1981, 1984; Runner-up: 1985
Division 1 (Level 1): 1982, 1983, 1984
European Super Cup: Runner-up 1978, 1984

[jpick]

in a vital role? i'm not too familiar with lee as i wasn't born in those earliest years listed, so maybe. yet what would be quite remarkable is if pirlo was average, is that years in which sometimes milan has had injuries problems or like this year, had a schizophrenic keeper and no strike force, for an average player to have almost every attack go through him, and milan still won the cl. that would be amazing.
remember, it's one thing to be an average keeper for a dominant team, but to be a player that due to tactics and formation, one can argue that you are the most important player to the team (not just for milan, this is true for the italy setup as well), and then have them win while you're average. he would be found out along the way and exploited, and in ancelotti's system, if pirlo is useless, then milan is useless.

plus, if he was average, why has milan management been scurrying the last few years just to find a capable backup. one of the things I and others on the milan transfer thread have talked about is whether milan will get ze roberto, or maybe the young blerim dzemaili from zurich (he is headed to bolton), or will we let gourcuff move back, etc.
everyone talks about the need for a striker, and yes we need one, but one of the biggest problems has been finding a vice-pirlo, so that if milan has multiple cl/cup/scudetto chases we don't have to run pirlo into the ground and he loses form from fatigue and hence we lose (exhibit A 2005-2006, pirlo didn't play as well at the end and we came up short in every competition). if he was average, couldn't milan find someone to throw back there and keep it going?

and yes, i do realize that this is a long response :D

[Joep]

You're right, poor players can't. But average players like Pirlo can. As also illustrated by Sammy Lee's track record:

Honours
Liverpool
Charity Shield: 1979, 1980, 1982; Runner-up: 1983, 1984
Football League Cup: 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984
European Cup: 1981, 1984; Runner-up: 1985
Division 1 (Level 1): 1982, 1983, 1984
European Super Cup: Runner-up 1978, 1984

I cringe everytime I see you write that.

[jpick]

I cringe everytime I see you write that.

same here
also, does anyone think that there are many players that if you substituted for pirlo in his role for italy or milan, that those teams would get better?
this is not just a question for seaside mafia, but for anyone. I say no, and I have thought about this a lot, but feel free to give suggestions (with justifications of course)

[Joep]

same here
also, does anyone think that there are many players that if you substituted for pirlo in his role for italy or milan, that those teams would get better?
this is not just a question for seaside mafia, but for anyone. I say no, and I have thought about this a lot, but feel free to give suggestions (with justifications of course)

Maybe someone like Xavi? But I don't think even him.

[jpick]

see, the thing is, because italy and milan both use the flanks so much for width, that one has to be such a great long-passer, but then also get forward and interplay as a playmaker, while of course being a great decision maker and having a good work rate (which he does have) to go forward and then back to the front of the back 4, etc. I am not sure there is anyone that has that combination of skills to the extent that pirlo has, at least right now (maybe fabregas if he gets a little older, gourcuff seems to now be who milan will try to groom as his replacement and he is promising, etc, but at this very moment right now i would take pirlo ahead of them and other youngsters). even if you look at say, regular #10s (remember, when i say think of anyone, don't just mean guys who play in the dlpm role, but anyone, period), a lot of them don't have either the work rate (ronaldinho for instance) or long-passing ability to do that (not saying pirlo is better than those players, just saying that he is better than them for his role, as I think he is the best in the world for milan and italy at what he does). he really plays as a unique dlpm/trequartista hybrid, who is also great at deadballs. in italian calcio parlance, he is a regista from deep, and then can come up and be a regista from in the hole. not too many players can do both those roles, let alone do them at a high level. albertini could do only one of them as well as pirlo. so I really can't think of anyone who could truly do his job description at a higher level given the unique and broad skill set it requires (again, not arguing that he is the best in the world overall or anything, or that he doesn't have weaknesses, so nobody should twist my words or arguments).

but yes, xavi is one who would come close, as he is a fine player. any other suggestions are welcome, as I said, I have really thought about a lot players, but I can't settle on any.
cheers

[Joep]

but yes, xavi is one who would come close, as he is a fine player. any other suggestions are welcome, as I said, I have really thought about a lot players, but I can't settle on any.
cheers

I've tried to start this discussion before, but then in reference to the deepest playmaker position, namely from central defense. You're best bet is either a 10 with the poise and clam to drop back or a central defender with enough skill on the ball to move forward.

sooo...uhm...

[jpick]

yeah, that is true, it is a unique position (one of my favorite positions/roles).

I would love a debate/discussion about different styles and players who play the role :).

[Seaside Mafia]

see, the thing is, because italy and milan both use the flanks so much for width, that one has to be such a great long-passer, but then also get forward and interplay as a playmaker, while of course being a great decision maker and having a good work rate (which he does have) to go forward and then back to the front of the back 4, etc. I am not sure there is anyone that has that combination of skills to the extent that pirlo has, at least right now (maybe fabregas if he gets a little older, gourcuff seems to now be who milan will try to groom as his replacement and he is promising, etc, but at this very moment right now i would take pirlo ahead of them and other youngsters). even if you look at say, regular #10s (remember, when i say think of anyone, don't just mean guys who play in the dlpm role, but anyone, period), a lot of them don't have either the work rate (ronaldinho for instance) or long-passing ability to do that (not saying pirlo is better than those players, just saying that he is better than them for his role, as I think he is the best in the world for milan and italy at what he does). he really plays as a unique dlpm/trequartista hybrid, who is also great at deadballs. in italian calcio parlance, he is a regista from deep, and then can come up and be a regista from in the hole. not too many players can do both those roles, let alone do them at a high level. albertini could do only one of them as well as pirlo. so I really can't think of anyone who could truly do his job description at a higher level given the unique and broad skill set it requires (again, not arguing that he is the best in the world overall or anything, or that he doesn't have weaknesses, so nobody should twist my words or arguments).

but yes, xavi is one who would come close, as he is a fine player. any other suggestions are welcome, as I said, I have really thought about a lot players, but I can't settle on any.
cheers

Pirlo fits the Milan system, just as Sammy Lee fit the Liverpool system, and Ian Bowyer fit the Nottingham Forest system. At their best they were better-than-average but not great, at their worst average. Put them in a different team and they become average. If you put Lampard in the Aston Villa side (or Serie A equivalent), he'd become average. This is what would also happen to Pirlo. Whereas truly great players like Gerard, Zidane, Keane, Vieira or even Paul Scholes would assert themselves and pull that side up through a much higher position.

[Seaside Mafia]

I've tried to start this discussion before, but then in reference to the deepest playmaker position, namely from central defense. You're best bet is either a 10 with the poise and clam to drop back or a central defender with enough skill on the ball to move forward.

sooo...uhm...

I've always liked the centre backs who can play. Or great players like Redondo who can do both.

[Seaside Mafia]

in a vital role? i'm not too familiar with lee as i wasn't born in those earliest years listed, so maybe. yet what would be quite remarkable is if pirlo was average, is that years in which sometimes milan has had injuries problems or like this year, had a schizophrenic keeper and no strike force, for an average player to have almost every attack go through him, and milan still won the cl. that would be amazing.
remember, it's one thing to be an average keeper for a dominant team, but to be a player that due to tactics and formation, one can argue that you are the most important player to the team (not just for milan, this is true for the italy setup as well), and then have them win while you're average. he would be found out along the way and exploited, and in ancelotti's system, if pirlo is useless, then milan is useless.

plus, if he was average, why has milan management been scurrying the last few years just to find a capable backup. one of the things I and others on the milan transfer thread have talked about is whether milan will get ze roberto, or maybe the young blerim dzemaili from zurich (he is headed to bolton), or will we let gourcuff move back, etc.
everyone talks about the need for a striker, and yes we need one, but one of the biggest problems has been finding a vice-pirlo, so that if milan has multiple cl/cup/scudetto chases we don't have to run pirlo into the ground and he loses form from fatigue and hence we lose (exhibit A 2005-2006, pirlo didn't play as well at the end and we came up short in every competition). if he was average, couldn't milan find someone to throw back there and keep it going?

and yes, i do realize that this is a long response :D

That's actually relatively short ;)

[schafer]

Pirlo fits the Milan system, just as Sammy Lee fit the Liverpool system, and Ian Bowyer fit the Nottingham Forest system. At their best they were better-than-average but not great, at their worst average. Put them in a different team and they become average. If you put Lampard in the Aston Villa side (or Serie A equivalent), he'd become average. This is what would also happen to Pirlo. Whereas truly great players like Gerard, Zidane, Keane, Vieira or even Paul Scholes would assert themselves and pull that side up through a much higher position.

I'm amazed how authoritatively you can state something like that. It's pure speculation on your part, and given how jpick has pointed out he's been part of several different winning teams at several different levels, I don't know how you could discredit him by saying he fits Milan's system. Especially when there are so very few players in world football who play a similar role, and certainly none to the level of Pirlo.

I'm also inclined to think you could stick him in a different side as a traditional #10 and he'd do quite well.

Btw, what did Lee and Bowyer do at the international level, away from a system that they fit so well? Neither of them were WC winners, to my knowledge.

[jpick]

there should be though, some players then that make milan better. if not, then that is what makes him great, as covered in an earlier post. i understand that sometimes, players who aren't great get stuck in good situations and win, but if nobody (or very few) can substitute in and make milan or italy better, holding all else equal, then pirlo is great. if you think he is average, then you should be able to name some players that can improve milan, some players greatly so, if you substitute him with them. i can't think of too many.

I prefer to compare up, not down for that reason.

[Seaside Mafia]

I'm amazed how authoritatively you can state something like that. It's pure speculation on your part, and given how jpick has pointed out he's been part of several different winning teams at several different levels, I don't know how you could discredit him by saying he fits Milan's system. Especially when there are so very few players in world football who play a similar role, and certainly none to the level of Pirlo.

I'm also inclined to think you could stick him in a different side as a traditional #10 and he'd do quite well.

Btw, what did Lee and Bowyer do at the international level, away from a system that they fit so well? Neither of them were WC winners, to my knowledge.

erm, yes of course it's speculation on my part, as is most comment about football. That's why it's fun to discuss. For me, judging a player is ultimately a gut feel. You can look at statistics but that only gives you a partial view. Look at Matt Le Tisier. Won very little in his career, yet in my opinion he was one of the greatest players of the last 20 years. Statistics wouldn't tell you that. It's pure speculation based on my time watching him as a player and seeing the way he used to carry his team single-handedly through entire seasons. To me this is the difference between a good and a great player. And I have seen too many not-much-better-than-average players who've benefited from playing in particularly good or well-organised teams. Like Lampard and like, in my opinion Pirlo. There's nothing you can say to change my view on this as it's based entirely on the games that I've seen him play. Granted I've seen him have some good games, but they've been when the whole team has played well. I can't recall ever seeing him as the guy that's stood up to be counted when the mess has hit the fan. If you, as a Milan fan, are prepared to put your hand on your heart and say that he is the guy that steps up, then I will back down on this. But be honest, according to my definition of a great player, rather than whatever yours is (and it's not international honours - are you saying that Ryan Giggs or Matt Le Tisier are or were crap players?).

[schafer]

erm, yes of course it's speculation on my part, as is most comment about football. That's why it's fun to discuss. For me, judging a player is ultimately a gut feel. You can look at statistics but that only gives you a partial view. Look at Matt Le Tisier. Won very little in his career, yet in my opinion he was one of the greatest players of the last 20 years. Statistics wouldn't tell you that. It's pure speculation based on my time watching him as a player and seeing the way he used to carry his team single-handedly through entire seasons. To me this is the difference between a good and a great player. And I have seen too many not-much-better-than-average players who've benefited from playing in particularly good or well-organised teams. Like Lampard and like, in my opinion Pirlo. There's nothing you can say to change my view on this as it's based entirely on the games that I've seen him play. Granted I've seen him have some good games, but they've been when the whole team has played well. I can't recall ever seeing him as the guy that's stood up to be counted when the mess has hit the fan. If you, as a Milan fan, are prepared to put your hand on your heart and say that he is the guy that steps up, then I will back down on this. But be honest, according to my definition of a great player, rather than whatever yours is (and it's not international honours - are you saying that Ryan Giggs or Matt Le Tisier are or were crap players?).

I'm actually not a Milan fan at all, but I think Pirlo is a helluva player. And the reason I brought up the international thing was because Italy do not play the same system as Milan and yet Pirlo was still successful, and played very well in an Italy team that really, in all honesty, wasn't near as good as they could've been. Totti was nowhere near 100%, Inzaghi couldn't go 90 minutes, Nesta was injured midway through the tournament, Iaquinta was garbage, Toni didn't play anywhere near his Fiorentian level, etc. Lee and Bowyer weren't successful outside of their club systems, Pirlo has been, that was my point.

You say the only good games he's had are when the whole team has played well, but if you saw Italy at the WC, you would know that certainly wasn't the case.

I agree that judging a player is a gut feel, but I think you've got it wrong on this one, tbh.

[jpick]

I was just about to use the world cup, but schafer beat me to it. there were times only he played well when you throw out gattuso and the defense/buffon. there were times, where italy had only pirlo for creativity, and due to injuries/squad selection did have to overly rely on pirlo, and he came through, and there is no bigger stage than deep in the world cup. look at the germany game, he was motm, and deservedly so imho, and that was even when cannavaro had a game for the ages. none of his great contributions were from set pieces either. (the assist was off a corner, but not a corner he delivered)

[Joep]

I've always liked the centre backs who can play. Or great players like Redondo who can do both.

Redondo was magnificent.

Ok, this has always been a bit of a dream to me, and it will always be only that, but you guys all know that film about Zidane right, the one where's followed a whole game long by 17 camers focussed solely on him? What I wouldnt give to see a tape like that from a Barcelona - Madrid game featuring both Guardiola and Redondo. That would have been the absolute shit in my opinion.

But seeing as how that's no longer possible, I would very gladly settle for one about Pirlo.

Seaside, you're right though, it is impossible for us to change your mind about him considering that you judge solely on what you've seen. And maybe you're right, Pirlo may not be the player that steps up when the cards are down (or something like that, bare with me, not a native english speaker and somewhat stoned) but the difference between the two of us that while I definitly agree with you that being able to stand up is certainly a sign of greatness, it is not the only one.

Thing is, I like Pirlo. Everything. His position, his role, his style, everything, and that's why I think he's the greatest. Gut feeling, like you say. I defend him blindly to my friends, eventhough I too can see he may not have had the most perfect game for example in the CL final. Of course I recognized that, but even then, the little things in which he falls short, to me, are less important than the lot of things he does right - with such a ridiculously beautiful style. That, too, is greatness to me. To me, players like Pirlo is why I fell and continue to be in love with football. Sure, I appreciate a good striker, a graceful tackle or someone taking charge of a game, but the way in which a player like Pirlo can influence, really direct a game...it doesn't get better than that...

I feel like I'm rambling now, which makes this quite possible the worst post in a series of very very good ones by you guys, but I think it may be what I wanted to say, so now i'll press submit anyways