Hier regiert der HSV thread 07/08 [R]

[Duncan Idaho]

It was clear to me before. I know people who work in this business and as I told you last night, "Kicker" isn't in the habit of picking up on bullshit. :rolleyes:

I seriously doubt that, the press disappointed me already too often in this regard, but that's a different topic and doesn't belong here

[footyfan1]

I know that, but I want to see the f****** interview by myself, which is in the edition tomorrow of this local newspaper in Hamburg. Press sometimes is cooking up things and in the end nothing was on it. The Schweinsteiger betting scandal story is already ringing my ears and this story got broadcasted everywhere within minutes

Like I told you, "Kicker" isn't in the habit of picking up on bullshit. I was wary of it too until I saw that "Kicker" had it.




Yeah, the Klose asshole and all the rest Bremen are saints story. Don't worry our Bremen buddy told us already exclusively. But back to vdV, if he said that he is already forcing his sale

I never said that shit. As a matter of fact, if you will recall, I was the one saying that something had to happen at or with Werder Bremen to make Klose do such a thing.

I brought up Klose because it's the most recent comparable situation. You see I brought up the situation of a player at my favorite club in the first mail too.

It's all about the situation, not who the player joined or didn't join.

But your reaction says a lot......



I didn't claim that, because someone is doing something once doesn't mean necessarily he is doing it twice, but you never can be sure off and that's the point that matters

And while you have a point, what also matters is that quite a few clubs are willing to take that chance and more often than not, even if the player forces another sale down the road, that club usually at least winds up making money.

When you have a player like vdV, unless your club is named Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Bayern Muenchen, Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Inter Milan, AC Milan or Juventus Turin, you can bet your ass that player is using your club as a steppingstone and you should plan on having him two years before he's ready to bolt. Less if you aren't in the CL.

Again, I have to use the Rosicky situation. He stayed in Dortmund happily as long as we were making the CL. Once we didn't, he wanted to bolt, but to his credit, he never forced a sale. I thought we kept him two years too long. We were dependent on him and in the end, it cost us. Even without an "out-clause" like vdV has...




This may be the case and I'm npt angry at someone if he thinks that way, but I would get angry if someone can't understand the club's situation.

If you are referring to me, I DO understand the club's situation. But take a look at the other side too. There are TWO SIDES to every story. What good is it going to do when your captain and best player doesn't want to be there and everyone else knows it? You don't think that will have an effect on team morale? It sure as hell did in Dortmund. And while most professionals would still give their all, vdV might just be pissed off enough to preserve himself for his next move. There are pros and cons to keeping him, just as their are pros and cons to selling him.

You have to look at all sides, not just the ones that support your opinion. I would understand fully if HSV told Valencia to "f#ck off". But would it be worth the future cost?

You can sell now and have the money to invest in another player either at the winter break or next season.

There's no guarantee they will make the top five even with vdV.

Pros and cons. Both sides have them......




completely different story with Ballack, this case was more about wounded pride. Anyway this is a different dicussion. But of course it was funny, he obviously wants back into our new dream team. But the Kaiser hopefully said no :p


Yeah right. I think he was in the area and just went to the match. I think he'd go to Real before crawling back to Munich. But it was funny to see him there the day the Premiership kicked off too.




It may be an eternity for some clubs, but for HSV? They need to negotiate the price up, they need to find a replacement in an empty market, negotiate with this replacement and its club with a largely visible money bag, and then 18 days are a freaking short time! It's not only about sitting at a table with Valencia and talk, it's about much more other meeting and talking behind closed HSV doors about possibilites, options, candidates, etc pp. This takes time unless you know for 100% what you are doing and how you are doing it, but this won't be the case due to the overall market situation


Dude, it is not that freakin' hard. If Valencia wants the players, they will play ball with HSV. You think they make one offer, wait a day and then sit back down? You don't think if Valencia truly wants him, they won't get this done before vdV is cup-tied? (He isn't already, is he? - If so, that may be a reason for their lowball offer.) As far as HSV and options? Dude, if you have a scouting department worth a damn, that takes a day? Two tops?

Please, this business is not as complicated as you think when two clubs want to get something done.

I'll use the Dede saga as a perfect case in point. Roma made their bid. Dede made his comments, BVB went back to Roma and said "10M, no less". Roma bid 8M, BVB told them "no deal.".

All of that took less than five days. Why? Because Roma didn't want Dede bad enough to pay 10M. It all depends on how badly Valencia want vdV.



I know you will say Trchowski and will say: Good luck and better pray to god!

Trochowski would be a temporary solution until a real #10 can be brought in . That's why you want to get 20M. Shit man, I didn't even want Trochowski in Dortmund when those rumors were going around. However, I also think he would surprise HSV if they said, "We got 20M, you're the guy until the winterpause unless you earn the job, now put up or shut the f#ck up."



Oh, I'm aware of that, but if he plays a exceptional season without serious injuries then there might be more bidders and even when these are lowballing HSV will still make a better price then now. That's why I clealry said, it will be a gamble regardless of what HSV is doing in the end

Again, when the hell has Rafael van der Vaart ever played a season without a serious injury? And now, even if he gets a cramp, he'll probably take the chance to sit out. Rafael van der Vaart doesn't have to prove a f#cking thing to the big clubs. They already know what he can do when he can play. And someone will want that. However, most of them will use that 1.5M buyout the next season against HSV. Because one other thing you don't mention about waiting is that more players will get out on the market right now. Not all of the big, rich, clubs need a Rafael van der Vaart. And yes, more clubs might come calling after this season, but again, there will be more players out there to fulfill those needs too.

Last time, there are pros and cons to both sides of this debate. All this comes down to is that you think HSV are better off keeping him and I think they may as well sell him (ONLY IF THEY CAN GET THEIR PRICE!) and get started on their future. All the other pieces are in place and are not going anywhere soon.

Why trip over the one guy you know will be leaving eventually and SOON?? :o

[footyfan1]

I seriously doubt that, the press disappointed me already too often in this regard, but that's a different topic and doesn't belong here

Dude, you have debated with me long enough to know I don't refer to anything in the press unless it is from a source I absolutely trust.

Example: I won't come on here debating something I saw in the "SportBild" until I find confirmation from another, more reliable source.

Why do I trust "kicker" so much? Because I know that they do the leg work before they throw a story up on their homepage.

[Wastl]

Kicker has become downright awful in the last few years, you really can't take thems seriously most of the time. SportBild has gotten worse as well, and they weren't all that great to begin with.


Hamburg will keep van der Vaart, and that's a smart choice. They still will get lots of money next summer, definitely more than from this pitiful offer by Valencia. With him, they can have a successful season, without him it's pretty much impossible.

[ForeverRed]

Well can't say I'm surprised about him.

If I was HSV I'd sell him now....no reason to keep him for one season and him all gloom and doom and probably underperforming.

Pack his bags, send him to the airport. End of story.

[Duncan Idaho]

Dude, you have debated with me long enough to know I don't refer to anything in the press unless it is from a source I absolutely trust.


There's a difference between pure knowlegde and trust. Don't get me wrong you are a serious and reasonable poster, but I'm already a burned child in this regard and therefore I always want to see it by my own eyes first ;)

Additionally I'm more shocked about the things he said that didn't get broadcasted yesterday, for example the part I quoted


I never said that shit. As a matter of fact, if you will recall, I was the one saying that something had to happen at or with Werder Bremen to make Klose do such a thing.

I brought up Klose because it's the most recent comparable situation. You see I brought up the situation of a player at my favorite club in the first mail too.

Klose is a comparable situation, yes. But the thing that annoys me in this case is the label asshole for Klose. Only the people that have full knowledge in this case have the right to say or not to say that and I don't see anybody here that fits into this group.

But your reaction says a lot......

well, I simply get annoyed by this Bremen dude here


When you have a player like vdV, unless your club is named Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Bayern Muenchen, Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Inter Milan, AC Milan or Juventus Turin, you can bet your ass that player is using your club as a steppingstone

I'm familiar with that, but this steppingstone has its own ideas and targets that don't necessarily correlate with the player wish at any specific point in time.


Again, I have to use the Rosicky situation. He stayed in Dortmund happily as long as we were making the CL. Once we didn't, he wanted to bolt, but to his credit, he never forced a sale. I thought we kept him two years too long. We were dependent on him and in the end, it cost us. Even without an "out-clause" like vdV has...


A similar steppingstone situation undebateable, but as far as I can remember it was under a much better point in time or time frame and that's why a solution which both sides could live with was much easier to find. This vdV reminds me as "just another Hargreaves to ManU story"

If you are referring to me

Nope, was refering to vdV


You don't think that will have an effect on team morale?

Of course it will, but I don't think that HSV management can base their decision on it. They have to focus on getting as much money out of him as possible which can only happen next year in my opinion. Yes it will hit their morale, it will probably hurt their season targets as well, but the damage would be higher without him.


Yeah right. I think he was in the area and just went to the match. I think he'd go to Real before crawling back to Munich. But it was funny to see him there the day the Premiership kicked off too.

he probably gave Müller-Wohlfarth a visit


Dude, it is not that freakin' hard. If Valencia wants the players, they will play ball with HSV. You think they make one offer, wait a day and then sit back down?

Well, as Bayern hadn't signed its new players, Bayern got linked with numerous players e.g. with Sneijder and at the same time Valencia was linked with him too, contrary to us they bid for him already at that time, and the whole thing went forth and back and look where and when Sneijder did land in the end. The Zigic story also took its time for Valencia. My main point here is they are looking for a player for the AM position since months and just before the window is closing the knock at HSV's door. Does that make a quick, determined impression for you about Valencia's management? That's the first reason that makes me doubt about quick solution in this case


Please, this business is not as complicated as you think when two clubs want to get something done.

my second point, HSV don't want this thing getting done


As far as HSV and options? Dude, if you have a scouting department worth a damn, that takes a day? Two tops?

Well, I could make a joke about HSV scouting department a few years ago, you know the rotten bag with the video tapes. :D

Seriously, name 3 players HSV could - i.e. with a serious chance - buy in this short time frame, that have similar potential?


All of that took less than five days. Why? Because Roma didn't want Dede bad enough to pay 10M. It all depends on how badly Valencia want vdV.

They were already struggling to bid more than 14 Mio for Sneijder months ago, so they won't get things done time again. They simply don't have such a huge money bag like Real or someone else.


Trochowski would be a temporary solution until a real #10 can be brought in .

This is an option, but I wouldn't take it. Since his youth times Trochowski has been almost a constant disappointment

Again, when the hell has Rafael van der Vaart ever played a season without a serious injury?

I can't recall any, but it is possible. Man, it is even possible that Santa Cruz may score more than 5 goals per season, though it might be unlikely. Anyway, they should be able to get 14 Mio next year even with a injury - as long it isn't a "Kreuzbandriss" -, too.


Rafael van der Vaart doesn't have to prove a f#cking thing to the big clubs. They already know what he can do when he can play

Doubt that, as he was warming Ajax's stand no big club did want him, though everyone knew him.


Because one other thing you don't mention about waiting is that more players will get out on the market right now.

True, this can happen

Not all of the big, rich, clubs need a Rafael van der Vaart.

I don't see a single big club who actually does and will do next season - especially in Spain his favourite country -, this lead me to my conclusion of last minute panic

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

well, I simply get annoyed by this Bremen dude here

By me. I am just saying my POV about a player.
Don´t come me with i can´t know everything. That´s right, nobody except
Klose does, but the facts, that are avaible to me are enough
to say, that he played dirty tricks with us and therefore i hate him.

He threw a lot of china here and he doesn´t need to be surprised,
that he´s not welcomed.

But back to VdV:
If the offer was really only 14 Million EUR,
it was right bei Beiersdorfer to trash it.

[johan neeskens]

I don't think Van der Vaart used HSV as a stepping stone. His move from Ajax to HSV at the time was actually seen as a step back as Ajax played CL football whereas HSV didn't. Also, when he says that he's always wanted to play in Spain, that's not a lie, we in Holland all remember him saying that for as long as he's been around. He wants a career in Spain as his mum is from Valencia and he still has family there. Overall I do I have more faith in Van der Vaart as an honest character than in most other footballers (i.e. Sneijder). He could've left HSV last winter when the club was in trouble but he stuck by you, after all.

That said, 14 million is a pathetic offer for a player of his quality and HSV have every right to fight for a player that is important to the club.

[footyfan1]

That said, 14 million is a pathetic offer for a player of his quality and HSV have every right to fight for a player that is important to the club.


I don't think anyone here disagrees with that comments.

No one here ever said HSV should sell for 14M.

I'm the one who thinks they should sell, but I also stated clearly that is only if HSV gets their price.

If they don't want to sell at all then they won't. But I think it will hurt them in the long run.....

[footyfan1]

One guy at my e-mail list just posted that vdV has begged out of the UEFA Cup Qualifier because "he hurt his back lifting his son."

Does anyone know if that is true or not?

Check that. I just found the story at "kicker." (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/uefa/startseite/artikel/368673/)

Looks like he said that, but then they talked to him and he relented. I guess they finally got him to see that he isn't going anywhere if it is left up to them. Which it is.....

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with anyone who thinks this guy is going to give HSV his best effort.

I think he will play well enough, but he will probably avoid every situation he could get hurt in.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

One guy at my e-mail list just posted that vdV has begged out of the UEFA Cup Qualifier because "he hurt his back lifting his son."

Does anyone know if that is true or not?


Is it true, that he´s really injured or that he was at the doctor,
because of a lumbago from lifting his son?

That he was at the doctor is true,
if it was really an injury or not
is speculation.

[footyfan1]

Is it true, that he´s really injured or that he was at the doctor,
because of a lumbago from lifting his son?

That he was at the doctor is true,
if it was really an injury or not
is speculation.

And you don't find it funny that things changed after HSV talked to him? Or you don't believe this?

If not, I will tell you the same thing I told DI, "kicker is not in the habit of picking up on bullshit."


This guy wants to go. He doesn't want to get cup-tied. I'm thinking he is only there because HSV told him he isn't going anywhere no matter how much he complains.

Now watch how little injuries become big ones with him this season.......

[Alois12]

And you don't find it funny that things changed after HSV talked to him? Or you don't believe this?

If not, I will tell you the same thing I told DI, "kicker is not in the habit of picking up on bullshit."


This guy wants to go. He doesn't want to get cup-tied. I'm thinking he is only there because HSV told him he isn't going anywhere no matter how much he complains.

Now watch how little injuries become big ones with him this season.......

The only reason he is doing this is so he can play international games with Valenica. If he plays now with Hamburg internationally (i.e. against Honvéd UEFA cup qualification) he won't be able to play until next Febuary 2008 with Valenica internationally. I'm very dissapointed with van der Vaart. :mad:

Boularhouz did the same when he changed to Chelsea. :eek:

[footyfan1]

The only reason he is doing this is so he can play international games with Valenica. If he plays now with Hamburg internationally (i.e. against Honvéd UEFA cup qualification) he won't be able to play until next Febuary 2008 with Valenica internationally. I'm very dissapointed with van der Vaart. :mad:


That is exactly what I was saying.......



Boularhouz did the same when he changed to Chelsea. :eek:

Exactly. But I think the club knew on his and kept him out so they could get the money.....

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

@ footyfan:
Sure, the story fits in Van der Vaarts wish to leave HSV.
I simply didn´t want to make a judgement, because i didn´t
know, if he is really injured, if he got that injury on purpose or
all the other things you could imagine.

btw: He´s not in the squad for today.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, ok, strange for a Werder fan to wish the rival good luck,
but i wish you much sucess in the UEFA-Cup quali vs. Budapest.

[footyfan1]

footyfan:
Sure, the story fits in Van der Vaarts wish to leave HSV.
I simply didn´t want to make a judgement, because i didn´t
know, if he is really injured, if he got that injury on purpose or
all the other things you could imagine.


EE, it all just fits too well. Yes, I was making an assumption, but it was a very likely assumption. An "injury" lifting his son was just too damned "convenient....."



btw: He´s not in the squad for today.

I didn't think he would be, but THAT was the assumption I did not want to make. What sucks is that this has to tell Valencia they have a chance.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, ok, strange for a Werder fan to wish the rival good luck, but i wish you much sucess in the UEFA-Cup quali vs. Budapest.

Same here brother! BEST OF LUCK TO HSV!!

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

0-0 after first half.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

I didn't think he would be, but THAT was the assumption I did not want to make. What sucks is that this has to tell Valencia they have a chance.


For 14 million EUR Hamburg would be stupid to sell him now,
because the league has still started.
I think, that the situation can change, if Valencia bid more and
Hamburg finds an adequate follower.

btw:
I am very annoyed of players behaviour in the recent past.
Some players made themselve very unsympatic at many people.
This is no good trend.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

And the match ended 0-0.

[footyfan1]

For 14 million EUR Hamburg would be stupid to sell him now,
because the league has still started.

EE. No one has said HSV should sell him for 14M. Why does this keep coming up? We all freakin' agree HSV should not do that.


I think, that the situation can change, if Valencia bid more and Hamburg finds an adequate follower.

EE. What are you talking about? vdV does not just want to leave Hamburg, he wants to go to VALENCIA.

He is destroying HSV's bargaining position by the mere fact that he does not wish to go anywhere else. And it looks as if we can assume that vdV will not play or will not give his all for HSV if they refuse to sell him.


btw:
I am very annoyed of players behaviour in the recent past.
Some players made themselve very unsympatic at many people.
This is no good trend.

And the players don't give a rat's ass. They are out for themselves. That's just how things are. I don't like it either, but if I wanted to bitch about it every time I had a chance, I would never stop bitching.

This is life. Football players have the same rights every other worker does. People don't get pissed off when a businessman breaks a contract and moves for more money, but yet we somehow feel footballers don't have the same right to do so?

Sorry man. I don't get that.

It does not mean that I think it's right, but who are we to determine what these guys can and cannot do?

HSV don't have to sell him. But I think if they don't he will make them wish they had......