EPL salary cap

[Dogmatagram]

Why not expand the competitive universe beyond the big four, by imposing a gross salary cap? The result would be 12-15 teams with roughly equal talent, and a much more interesting EPL. America does it, with its (American) football and basketball. The League is -- now more than ever -- risking devolution into a 4 team division. Why should this happen? Shouldn't supporters insist on a salary cap, for the sake of English football?

[frasermc]

sounds great in theory. works very well in american football to create parity in the league.

but would the fans of the big 4 want a cap limit imposed?

more importantly, would the big 4 teams themselves want a cap like this? it would surely leave them at a great disadvantage in european competition would it not?

unless it was going to be brought in by FIFA or UEFA as standard throughout every country.

at the end of the day football will reach a saturation point on tv and the sky bubble will burst. there will come a time when sky will refuse to pay as much for the rights and other companies won't offer as much. once this happens teams will have to cut their cloth accordingly.

[SweetLew]

England would only consider a salary cap if the rest of Europe
did likewise. Imagine England teams with a cap and lower quality team
playing in CL, would not go down to good

[Dogmatagram]

England has reached a point where the League is self-sustainable. Why care about the Champions League if England can create the ultimate bastion of football? This is a rare opportunity -- and threat. I.e., a glorious footballing League or the big four and everyone else wasting their time. The EPL has the opportunity to make Serie A and La Liga irrelevant -- or at least secondary. Can you imagine the level of world interest if 12-15 teams were roughly equal in the EPL? The money would spread out, the gross would increase, and the world would have no choice but to accede to the EPL. That's really the bottom line.

Let AC Milan or whoever win the CL -- and the occasional EPL team. Eventually, the best football would be played in England, and the EPL would be the league of reference. The alternative is a pointless situation in which 4 teams are relevant. Why sell the EPL short? This is a unique opportunity.

[Derrida]

Eventually, the best football would be played in England, and the EPL would be the league of reference. The alternative is a pointless situation in which 4 teams are relevant. Why sell the EPL short? This is a unique opportunity.

It seems to me that the best football be played where the best players were playing. Like, somewhere where they could get more money. Which would mean somewhere other than the Premiership.

That doesn't mean there's no point in trying to rebuild some equity into the structure of the league, but I do think we should be wary of the idea that the EPL's current dominance (in competitive and especially monetary terms) will last forever. There is an element of a positive feedback where they get more money because they're better so they get more money so they get better, and so on.

I have a feeling a cap which affected England but not other leagues would insert a break into that feedback and potentialy cause a pretty steady flow of the best players to mainland Europe.

[Dogmatagram]

It seems to me that the best football be played where the best players were playing. Like, somewhere where they could get more money. Which would mean somewhere other than the Premiership.

That doesn't mean there's no point in trying to rebuild some equity into the structure of the league, but I do think we should be wary of the idea that the EPL's current dominance (in competitive and especially monetary terms) will last forever. There is an element of a positive feedback where they get more money because they're better so they get more money so they get better, and so on.

I have a feeling a cap which affected England but not other leagues would insert a break into that feedback and potentialy cause a pretty steady flow of the best players to mainland Europe.

England would, in theory, lose some players in the short run, but ultimately who cares? Wouldn't you -- as a supporter -- rather see a league that is (a) second to none (though, at worst, not superior to any), and (b) has 12-15 sides with enough quality to legitimately think about winning the CL? Particularly when the converse is a 4 team league with everyone else just playing along. What's the point of that?

My attitude is: let's create an amazing football competition and let anybody else (in other countries) do what they want.

And oh, by the way, the EPL would potentially be the dominant league, in terms of TV and general interest. Which suggests that, ultimately, the gross revenues would be such that -- even with a salaray cap -- all the best players would be there.

Anyway, I'd rather TRY that than descend into a four team league, which is what we have now -- and wlll have for the immediate future.

Don't mistake this for 1999. The EPL has a unique opportunity RIGHT NOW to do this.

[frasermc]

England would, in theory, lose some players in the short run, but ultimately who cares? Wouldn't you -- as a supporter -- rather see a league that is (a) second to none (though, at worst, not superior to any), and (b) has 12-15 sides with enough quality to legitimately think about winning the CL? Particularly when the converse is a 4 team league with everyone else just playing along. What's the point of that?

My attitude is: let's create an amazing football competition and let anybody else (in other countries) do what they want.

And oh, by the way, the EPL would potentially be the dominant league, in terms of TV and general interest. Which suggests that, ultimately, the gross revenues would be such that -- even with a salaray cap -- all the best players would be there.

Anyway, I'd rather TRY that than descend into a four team league, which is what we have now -- and wlll have for the immediate future.

Don't mistake this for 1999. The EPL has a unique opportunity RIGHT NOW to do this.

do they though?

wouldn't it be the case that it would need to be approved through EU law and doesn't FIFA or UEFA have to ok this if the english FA wished to implement it.

if that's the case then chances are it would never see the light of day. and i have to agree with derrida. most players these days are governed by money to an extent...sad but true. they would move to la liga, serie a, bundesliga and these league's would benefit from extra tv revenue from the influx of bigger and an increasing number of star players..

[Dogmatagram]

do they though?

wouldn't it be the case that it would need to be approved through EU law and doesn't FIFA or UEFA have to ok this if the english FA wished to implement it.

if that's the case then chances are it would never see the light of day. and i have to agree with derrida. most players these days are governed by money to an extent...sad but true. they would move to la liga, serie a, bundesliga and these league's would benefit from extra tv revenue from the influx of bigger and an increasing number of star players..

I don't know whether there are regulatory restrictions -- does anyone have this info?

In any event, laws can be changed -- or the English league can simply secede from any organization would prevent a legitimately competitive table. No multinational body has enough leverage over the EPL, at this point, to prevent an EPL salary cap -- especiall if reform means elevating the EPL to the reference league.

In any event, once the legalities are straightened out, an EPL salary cap would NOT result in numerous EPL stars going to Seria A, La Liga, etc. With any salary cap, 70-90% of the top-paid players would stay. It would be a matter of losing probably 20% of the stars and 20% of the filler in the short run -- but creating a table wherein Spurs or Charlton or whoever would be competitive with Chelsea -- and, potentially, displacing the rest of international club football in the long run..

I guess the question that keeps coming up is: what is the point of a four team league?

[RichardL]

I don't think you've grasped just home much money the top teams have to spend on players. It's not you could limit Chelsea to 70% of what they spend now and have Middlesbrough catch up. They spend far more because they have far more.

And no, if you limit the top teams to Middlesbrough's limit you don't get the top players spread around all the clubs - you get a division where no team is better than Middlesbrough

[M]

In any event, laws can be changed -- or the English league can simply secede from any organization would prevent a legitimately competitive table. No multinational body has enough leverage over the EPL, at this point, to prevent an EPL salary cap -- especiall if reform means elevating the EPL to the reference league.


This will never happen because secession would also mean England not being able to compete at national team level.


I guess the question that keeps coming up is: what is the point of a four team league?

Better ask the fans. Even with the Champions League induced dominance of the "big four" there is precious little evidence that fans are turning away from the league. It was the second best supported league in Europe, had by far the highest ticket revenues, and its capcity utliization was the highest in Europe too.

[Ian Daglers]

England would, in theory, lose some players in the short run, but ultimately who cares? Wouldn't you -- as a supporter -- rather see a league that is (a) second to none (though, at worst, not superior to any), and (b) has 12-15 sides with enough quality to legitimately think about winning the CL? Particularly when the converse is a 4 team league with everyone else just playing along. What's the point of that?

My attitude is: let's create an amazing football competition and let anybody else (in other countries) do what they want.

And oh, by the way, the EPL would potentially be the dominant league, in terms of TV and general interest. Which suggests that, ultimately, the gross revenues would be such that -- even with a salaray cap -- all the best players would be there.

Anyway, I'd rather TRY that than descend into a four team league, which is what we have now -- and wlll have for the immediate future.

Don't mistake this for 1999. The EPL has a unique opportunity RIGHT NOW to do this.

But this just isn't true. As soon as the English league stops being the most lucrative place to play football, it stops being the most attractive place to play football. From the perspective of a top international player from say, France or Africa or Latin America, there appear two huge problems: you can't get as much money as you could in Italy or Spain, and you won't be joining as strong of a team as you would there. So even if you're not a complete mercenary, you still don't want England because you're not playing against the best teams (Madrid, Barca, Juve and the Milans). England would almost immediately become a second-rate league, don't kid yourself. And just as players lose interest in it, so would foreign fans. Spain and Italy would pick up the most lucrative cable/satellite deals, and the Premiership will have relinquished every advantage it formerly had in a few short years.

I think the Premiership has a much better chance of becoming more competitive just by letting things be. For one thing, the wealthy but unsuccessful clubs (cough, Spurs and Newcastle) seem to finally be turning the corner with regards to competent management. And also, the new tv deal should reduce the relative advantage of the richest clubs over the average clubs, because everyone will have enough money to succeed with a smart manager. The days of Arsenal walking into a CL spot during a rebuilding year with serious injury issues seem numbered.

[Derrida]

England would, in theory, lose some players in the short run, but ultimately who cares? Wouldn't you -- as a supporter -- rather see a league that is (a) second to none (though, at worst, not superior to any), and (b) has 12-15 sides with enough quality to legitimately think about winning the CL? Particularly when the converse is a 4 team league with everyone else just playing along. What's the point of that?

Well of course I would, but I just don't think that's a realistic choice, for all the reasons people have pointed out. I'd love it if the Readings and Fulhams and Portsmouths of the world had a realistic chance of getting the best players in the world, but since they simply don't have the revenue to compete with the best teams in La Liga, Serie A, the Bundesliga, etc. I don't really expect them to. Now, if the amount of support for the EPL could be redistributed so that all the Chelsea/Man U fans around the world split themselves among the rest of the 12-15 teams so the same amount of money funneled in, I would be very happy. It just won't happen though.

Beyond that, it's all idle speculation because the big teams control the fate of the Premiership, due in part to their massive monetary advantage. They would never sign onto a system that requires them to a) voluntarily refuse to tap into their huge advantages and b) over the long term bleed tremendous amounts of supporters to the other clubs.

I'd rather find partial solutions that might be palatable than ask for the whole cake and get nothing.

But yes, in principle, a balanced league would be far better than what we have now. Not sure there's much than can change the fundamental dynamics which have created that system, though, unfortunately.

[frasermc]

and finally, if the FA decided to branch off from UEFA and FIFA so as to create their own league with their own rules (salary cap). then it wouldn't be long before they were locked from international competition and that, the FA would not/could not afford to happen.

maybe a more viable alternative is rather than to have a gross salary cap is to hope that FIFA could impose an individual salary cap. say a maximum ceiling height of £50k/week.

now that wouldn't create parity but it would give other teams at least a chance of offering players a contract that could compete with the big boys. again though, employment laws would come into force and would probably restrict this from happening.

could be argued though that it could save teams from getting themselves into heavier debt trying to keep up with the chelski's etc..

[sinner78]

Listen ,this moronic plan has been put forward countless times by Americans who think their precious sports model is the best.
And it has been shot down in flames every time because....

The NFL can have a salary cap because they haven't got any foreign competition and can do whatever they want without risking losing any players to rivals.
The premiership has numerous rivals in places like Spain ,Italy ,Germany,etc who will hoover up all the best players if we crippled ourselves with a salary limit.

Having a salary cap when no other league has got one is suicide!!!
OK?? how many times does this have to spelled out?

[nicephoras]

maybe a more viable alternative is rather than to have a gross salary cap is to hope that FIFA could impose an individual salary cap. say a maximum ceiling height of £50k/week.

now that wouldn't create parity but it would give other teams at least a chance of offering players a contract that could compete with the big boys. again though, employment laws would come into force and would probably restrict this from happening.

could be argued though that it could save teams from getting themselves into heavier debt trying to keep up with the chelski's etc..

I hope you're OK with your profession capping all wages across the board to prevent your employer from bankrupting itself. Because your employer, apparently, is stupid.
Just because Leeds went under doesn't mean we need to cap wages to prevent another Leeds. Even with capped wages some club will manage to bungle things badly enough to disappear. Or it'll be owned by someone that becomes bankrupt, like Fiorentina.

[nicephoras]

Why not expand the competitive universe beyond the big four, by imposing a gross salary cap? The result would be 12-15 teams with roughly equal talent, and a much more interesting EPL. America does it, with its (American) football and basketball. The League is -- now more than ever -- risking devolution into a 4 team division. Why should this happen? Shouldn't supporters insist on a salary cap, for the sake of English football?

You grossly overestimate the EPL's appeal abroad. Once English sides no longer do well in Europe (and this plan ensures exactly that), the EPL's popularity abroad will begin to fade thus reducing this idea to shambles.

[leg_breaker]

I hope you're OK with your profession capping all wages across the board to prevent your employer from bankrupting itself.

I wouldn't mind my wage being capped at fifty grand a week.

[leg_breaker]

You grossly overestimate the EPL's appeal abroad. Once English sides no longer do well in Europe (and this plan ensures exactly that), the EPL's popularity abroad will begin to fade thus reducing this idea to shambles.

No, people watch football for players. Americans watch the Premiership because of the Americans playing here, it's not like Fulham are competing in the Champions League.

[nicephoras]

I wouldn't mind my wage being capped at fifty grand a week.

Why do you get to decide what other people make? If someone wants to pay me £75K a week, what business is it of yours?
What if I capped your profession at £30K per year? You live in Bolton - you can survive on that.

[nicephoras]

No, people watch football for players. Americans watch the Premiership because of the Americans playing here, it's not like Fulham are competing in the Champions League.

Americans watch the bigger sides FAR more than they watch Fulham. A small minority of American fans are Fulham fans. You're simply wrong on this one - why do you think the Arsenal and Utd. forums are the busiest on here?