Carlos Tevez vs. Wayne Rooney

[jpick]

^^^ oh, dear god, i really need to re-read my posts, that sounded like something out of google translate :o

[jpick]

Don't apologize to me - I've never even met Spartak and his club continues to poach my club's captains.
But keep in mind that once you lower the level of discourse you can't claim its the fault of other people.

don't worry, you can now sign a former milanista to make up for oddo and nesta. I honestly think that all things considered you guys will have gotten the better part of the deals.
http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jul10k.html

ok, i'm an ass, i apologize in advance

[Spartak]

Spartak, I'm not going to waste my time going back and quoting from all of your posts in this thread thus far. If you read back through them and honestly attempt to ask that same question again then I feel very sorry for you indeed. It's there for anyone to see and you know that full well.

Something tells me you already wasted your time looking through this thread for my "bashing" quotes :rolleyes:

Of course it was all in vain ;)

[Spartak]

spartak doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground



:D
Possibly, I haven't see my ass in years ;)
Don't apologize to me - I've never even met Spartak and his club continues to poach my club's captains.
But keep in mind that once you lower the level of discourse you can't claim its the fault of other people.
Don't worry. We will let you keep Zauri for as long as you want :)

[Moishe]

If anyone asks, this is not ducking out of anything. I'm simply tired of people playing the ignorant card and then creating even more arguments as they try to defend an untenable postion before swiftly trying to backtrack. I've said it all before and rather than repeat myself people can simply use the search function. If anyone has anything new to bring to the table then great. I can only hope it is of a better standard then our Sunderland friend.



Spartak, I'm not going to waste my time going back and quoting from all of your posts in this thread thus far. If you read back through them and honestly attempt to ask that same question again then I feel very sorry for you indeed. It's there for anyone to see and you know that full well.




If that is going to be your attitude then you will be waiting an awfully long time. Like Spartak, it is there for all to see. I did say you were not one of the worst but to claim you did not do it would be a lie. It has nothing to do with people disagreeing with me and I'm getting pretty tired of that accusation. I have detailed my complaint numerous times and on several threads. I stand by it. It is a simple concept to comprehend and I live in hope the ignorant in our midst (did I just say that again...) will finally be able to grasp it. Good day.


Teso I have gone back reread my posts in this thread and to be honest I've very complimentary to Mr Rooney and at no point did I say anything degrading to him as a futbol player. I simply did not agree with you which apparently is the only thing you want in this thread. The claim that this has nothing to do with people disagreeing with you is flat out not true. The simplist concept to accept and understand is that this is soley opinions shared. I've made my argument and in no way disrespected the talent that Rooney is and has. So again stop avoiding the fact that you cannot point out any negatives I've said about Rooney other than I think Tevez is better.

[Moishe]

Here is a legit question. At what age does a player no longer qualify for best young player in the world status? Do years in the top leagues work into the equation?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

If you don't stop with the victim crap I'm going to close the thread. Enough already.

As for everyone else - lets tone down anything personal. Please keep this thread clean.

What 'victim crap'? If you have a personal problem with me then take it to PM and cut out the pathetic threats. You let this thread and these forums degenerate to this state so don't try to blame anyone else.

You have no idea whether or not Rooney will be displaced. And most clubs don't have the money to bring in one someone as talented, and presumably as expensive, as Tevez when you have someone as young as good as Rooney. But Man Utd is not most clubs, and so you'll have this glut. I saw more West Ham games last year than Arsenal games (my brother's a West Ham fan), even four or five when Tevez was being mishandled by Pardew, and I just think he's better. And they're most effective, to me, playing the withdrawn striker.

Neither do you but the chances of Rooney being displaced is minimal. Several clubs have the money to do similar but they have not. That is their loss. The thing you have forgotten about is that Man Utd do not play with a traditional striker and that is why we did so well without Ruud and with all of the injuries we faced. In the system we used at the tail end of the season Rooney started wide in midfield and all of the attackers, including the striker, roamed around the attacking third with creative freedom to interchange positions and make runs. Both Tevez and Rooney can function in such a system and together. They should also have the intelligence and skill to rotate in a more traditional system. You need to remember that formations are dynamic and player positons (in an attacking sense) are nominal.

Something tells me you already wasted your time looking through this thread for my "bashing" quotes :rolleyes:

Of course it was all in vain ;)

Something tells me you are to lazy to look. You know I value your posts but when you start the Tevez eulogies... :p

Teso I have gone back reread my posts in this thread and to be honest I've very complimentary to Mr Rooney and at no point did I say anything degrading to him as a futbol player. I simply did not agree with you which apparently is the only thing you want in this thread. The claim that this has nothing to do with people disagreeing with you is flat out not true. The simplist concept to accept and understand is that this is soley opinions shared. I've made my argument and in no way disrespected the talent that Rooney is and has. So again stop avoiding the fact that you cannot point out any negatives I've said about Rooney other than I think Tevez is better.

Whatever you say.

Here is a legit question. At what age does a player no longer qualify for best young player in the world status? Do years in the top leagues work into the equation?

Interesting question. Usually I would say 22 because after that a player can only play for the full national squad (generally). I also think experience has something to do with it. When people usually think about young players they consider potential and the next new thing (or fad). Comparing someone like Rooney or Ronaldo to other young players is simply not fair because they are young but already established as being amongst the best around. I suppose it depends on the wording of the question. In your case I maintain 22 years old but others no doubt feel differently.

[Moishe]

Interesting question. Usually I would say 22 because after that a player can only play for the full national squad (generally). I also think experience has something to do with it. When people usually think about young players they consider potential and the next new thing (or fad). Comparing someone like Rooney or Ronaldo to other young players is simply not fair because they are young but already established as being amongst the best around. I suppose it depends on the wording of the question. In your case I maintain 22 years old but others no doubt feel differently.

22 makes sense for the stated reason. I've also looked at it from this perspective, both Rooney and Tevez have both been playing top tier league futbol for at the very least five years each. With this experience, is it really fair to refer to them as young players?

p.s. Teso, I say so:p

[Spartak]

Something tells me you are to lazy to look. You know I value your posts but when you start the Tevez eulogies... :p

This thread isn't that long. I skimmed through it and didn't see any disparaging comments made by me about Rooney. But of course I don't view things from the sensitive ManU eyes that you do ;)

And you may be right that I defend Tevez a little too much. But I only do it because there have been a lot of posters on BigSoccer that didn't have a clue about how good he was before he came to England. I have a habit of defending players(that I like) who are constantly slagged off by posters who hardly ever watch them play. I do the same for Riquelme and Totti.

[argentine soccer fan]

Neither do you but the chances of Rooney being displaced is minimal. Several clubs have the money to do similar but they have not. That is their loss. The thing you have forgotten about is that Man Utd do not play with a traditional striker and that is why we did so well without Ruud and with all of the injuries we faced. In the system we used at the tail end of the season Rooney started wide in midfield and all of the attackers, including the striker, roamed around the attacking third with creative freedom to interchange positions and make runs. Both Tevez and Rooney can function in such a system and together. They should also have the intelligence and skill to rotate in a more traditional system. You need to remember that formations are dynamic and player positons (in an attacking sense) are nominal.



I wonder, what do you think will be the formation of Manchester United? If the transfer goes through, do you think Tevez and Rooney will play together, or platoon?

It would be interesting to see if MU plays without a traditional penalty area centerforward. I thought they didn't use a traditional striker by necesity, but their interest in Tevez makes me thing that it just might be by design.

Ronaldo + Tevez + Rooney would be an unconventional attack, but with so much talent it should create problems for any defense.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

They will play together, of that I am certain. Like I said previously, when we ditched Ruud and planned to use Saha it was because his movement, pace and ability to drop deep created space for our creative players to move into and problems for the opposition in terms of tracking all of these moving targets. At the end of last season we ended up reverted back to 4-2-3-1, with the attacking three given a free role and Rooney being one component of that. The logical conclusion is that we will continue with that but use either Tevez or Rooney as the nominal striker but dropping back and interchanging as usual. It is a very tough one to call because our summer sigings gives us the option to play any formation/system to a very high standard. For all I know we could just revert back to 4-4-2 but the single striker system that allows our creative players freedom to perform seems to be the best bet at this stage. Either way it will be nightmare for the opposition. Their tactic of double or triple marking certain players will be their downfall. The easiest way to describe things would be 4-2-TOTAL...

I do the same for Riquelme and Totti.

That makes two things we agree on. I would say Tevez as well but my man crush is not on the same level. ;)

[jpick]

I do the same for Riquelme and Totti.

do I sense a new versus thread :)?

(and don't give me the whole they don't play exactly the same gambit, hell, we've compared toni v rooney and other players who were more dissimilar than these two)

[Spartak]

do I sense a new versus thread :)?

(and don't give me the whole they don't play exactly the same gambit, hell, we've compared toni v rooney and other players who were more dissimilar than these two)
Aw man, that's like asking me who do I love more, my mother or wife. I refuse to answer :D

[nicephoras]

Ronaldo + Tevez + Rooney would be an unconventional attack, but with so much talent it should create problems for any defense.

We thought the same about Drogba, Sheva, Robben, Lampard and Ballack.
It doesn't work that way, sadly.

[nicephoras]

don't worry, you can now sign a former milanista to make up for oddo and nesta. I honestly think that all things considered you guys will have gotten the better part of the deals.
http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jul10k.html

ok, i'm an ass, i apologize in advance

That HAS to be a joke. Right?

[nicephoras]

Don't worry. We will let you keep Zauri for as long as you want :)

Nesta's the only one I miss. Oddo - not so much. Good player, but our captain should never have been agitating for a move to another club. That's pretty weak.
Zauri has been one of our best players, actually. Which means you, Juve or Inter will buy him in no time. Every time those three clubs play it feels like a rendition of the Former Lazio All Stars world tour.

[roykeanes_safc]

And England COULD have a world class striker in Emile Heskey. But they don't. Nor is Rooney the best young player in the world.

Now thats one of the funniest posts ive read in BS

[Twix]

Bump time.

Lemme try and present the case for both.

Carlito Tevez

He has not had a break for a whole year. He helped West Ham stay up, went to the Copa, whole saga about whether he can come to United and missed the ************ pre season. Due to injuries, he's been rushed into the United side. So considering the fact he hasn't had the fortune of playing off a consistent conventional #9, he hasn't been able to play his natural game coupled with the fact he's at 75% fitness, Tevez has been brilliant thus far. He's been extremely clutch already scoring quite a few important goals this season. I haven't been particularly impressed by his all round game but that's to be expected given that he's suffering from fatigue.

Wayne Rooney

He has had a shite pre season, suffered from injuries, and hasn't played regularly in his natural position. Add this to some other factors and it's not surprising to see that Rooney has stagnated. His finishing has been dire, and his goal output has been disappointing. With all that taken into consideration, his all round game has been good and he's still given in quite a few solid performances this season. Similar to Tevez, he's having an ok season but in all honesty he's had better.

So what does everyone else think?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

As I stated in the overrated thread...

Neither player is a striker, they are a new partnership and both have not been at their best for differing reasons (which you covered above). Despite that they have still contributed a combined 28 goals and 17 assists for the team this season (see below). That is before we discuss their influence outside of their end product. I was one of the few who felt their partnership would work and at this point I feel pretty justified in that assertion. When they were both in form you could see their link-up play and understanding develop in each game but then Rooney went down injured and Tevez started to fade.

Our problems this season have been two-fold. The first is our inability to get any consistency in midfield due to injuries. The continued changes in personnel has lead to our team being a bit disjointed. By that I mean the defense and attack have remained pretty settled and done well but at times we lack cohesion and that leads to the team relying on the attacking trio of Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney to perform. This has caused a few problems which has mainly manifested itself in a general lack of clinical play in and around the box. Now some might point to it being down to a lack of a natural striker and that is true to an extent but we already moved away from relying on a striker for goals when we ditched Van Nistelrooy and went with Saha for his movement and link-up play. While having a striking option available would be good to (a) give us another approach, and (b) enable us to rest players, it does seem strange to complain when our forward trio has provided 61 goals thus far in all competitions.

Anyone who has watched us play recently and knows both players is aware that Tevez has faded and seems to be playing within himself, while Rooney seems to have hit a scoring slump. Injuries and fatigue have played their part but I'm becoming a bit concerned about what role Rooney has in the side, particularly looking to the future. Originally I had anticipated a return to the 4-2-3-1 with Rooney or Tevez nominally operating as a striker (should Saha not be playing). While that has happened at times it seems that Rooney is mainly operated upfront and neither is rotating to the extent that I had anticipated. I don't understand this because in my mind Rooney operates better deeper, while Tevez is more clinical in and around the box. It will be interesting to see how their partnership works when both are fully fit and we actually have a reliable striking option to call on. Thankfully Rooney does not have Euro 2008 to worry about and considering Tevez did not get a break during the summer I would expect that he would have the summer off as well (unless some idiot wants to run him into an early grave at the Olympics). With both of them firing on all cylinders and infront of a settled midfield I have high hopes for the continued partnership.


Rooney

League - 8 goals and 9 assists in 20 games (1580 minutes)
Europe - 3 goals and 1 assist in 7 games (589 minutes)
Cup - 2 goals and 0 assists in 4 games
Total - 13 goals and 10 assists in 30 games

Tevez

League - 11 goals and 6 assists in 27 games (2200 minutes)
Europe - 3 goals and 1 assist in 7 games (257 minutes)
Cup - 1 goals and 0 assists in 1 game
Total - 15 goals and 7 assists in 35 games

[Twix]

As I stated in the overrated thread...

Neither player is a striker, they are a new partnership and both have not been at their best for differing reasons (which you covered above). Despite that they have still contributed a combined 28 goals and 17 assists for the team this season (see below). That is before we discuss their influence outside of their end product. I was one of the few who felt their partnership would work and at this point I feel pretty justified in that assertion.


Rooney


League - 8 goals and 9 assists in 20 games (1580 minutes)

Europe - 3 goals and 1 assist in 7 games (589 minutes)

Cup - 2 goals and 0 assists in 4 games

Total - 13 goals and 10 assists in 30 games


Tevez


League - 11 goals and 6 assists in 27 games (2200 minutes)

Europe - 3 goals and 1 assist in 7 games (257 minutes)

Cup - 1 goals and 0 assists in 1 game

Total - 15 goals and 7 assists in 35 games


Hmm, I'll have to disagree with you on this point Teso. They've been okay this season, but as individuals and as a paring, they've performed below par. Comparing their goal output to the top 2 forwards of other sides and they seem to fall up short.


Drogba & Shevchenko (:D) - 17 goals
McCarthy & Santa Cruz - 27 goals
Rooney & Tevez - 28 goals
Yakubu & Johnson - 28 goals
Cristiano Ronaldo - 33 goals
Adebayor & Eduardo - 35 goals
Berba & Keane - 42 goals
Gerrard & Torres - 46 goals


That's just looking at the Premiership alone. None of these partnerships have had ideal seasons but they've produced more goals than Rooney and Tevez this season. Heck, even Ronaldo has got more goals than both of them put together! In spite of their setbacks, that's just not good enough.

Before Rooney's second injury, they looked very good together but since then they've struggled to mesh together. They rarely both have good games when playing together and it's most likely a #9 of sorts would free them up so they can play their natural game and be more effective. Like you mentioned though, they should perform better next season but this season has been a disappointing one for both Wayne and Carlito.