Carlos Tevez vs. Wayne Rooney

[Teso Dos Bichos]

That useless team were fully expected to compete for a European spot. They have good players who seriously let the team down.

[lanman]

That useless team were fully expected to compete for a European spot.

They were not really expected to outside of East London. They over achieved last season and under achieved this year. Their final position this year is pretty much where their talent level (Tevez asside) merits.

They have good players who seriously let the team down.

Such as? Ferdinand is living off the family name and Reo-Coker seemed to believe his own hype. Benayoun can be good, but is far too inconsistant and the jury has to be out on Ashton until he has a full year in the top flight.


Having said all of that, "Useless" is too harsh a word to use. "Average" would be better.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

The glorious English press disagree and that was before the shock capture of Tevez and Mascherano.

[lanman]

The glorious English press disagree and that was before the shock capture of Tevez and Mascherano.

The opinion of the English press is largely worthless and there are a few prominant sports writers who are West Ham fans and almost always over-rate their chances and their players. They finished 9th in 2006 with a negative goal difference - take Harewood's goals out of that (as he will never repeat the 14 goals he had in the top flight) and you have a bottom half of the table team. If they were not a London side then it is highly doubtful anyone in the media would have predicted anything above lower mid-table.

[Bronaldo]

before the tevez/mascherano signing i had predicted that west ham would finish comfortably in the top 10 and would certainly be fighting for a spot in europe. After the signings i saw them fighting for fourth for a good bit of the season, but eventually finishing 5-7th.

West Ham are a very good team and when they play well they can certainly compete with the epls finest and i feel that they have a better team then everton and bolton. In my eyes they are on par with tottenham.

[Iaquinta]

Yeah, that's where I saw him the most. I barely watch Serie A these days but I've heard he's been atrocious.
He doesn't work well in Milans system, he does better with another striker.

[lanman]

West Ham are a very good team and when they play well they can certainly compete with the epls finest and i feel that they have a better team then everton and bolton. In my eyes they are on par with tottenham.

Please tell me this is a wind up.

[Spartak]

I can't believe there is still debate on this issue. Tevez has been successful for every club and at every level he's played. The only criticism he got from European fans was he never did anything in Europe. Well, once Pardew was gone and Tevez finally got a chance to play he proved he can make it in Europe as well. Whereas, Rooney has largely been a failure for ManU in the CL and for England internationally. Next year when Tevez plays for a big European club the disparity in class will be even more apparent.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

You give Tevez a free pass when he was played out of position for Pardew but refuse to do so for Rooney when he is played out of position in Europe? To top it all, doing so in a season where Rooney has posted his best European goal total and one in which he got a brace against your own side. Unbelievable.

[jpick]

Yeah, that's where I saw him the most. I barely watch Serie A these days but I've heard he's been atrocious.

atrocious in europe and versus big clubs, score goals versus smaller clubs, but his playing time has been cut short some this season for various reasons. he is only 24 and shows flashes here and there of his parma/u21 form, but I think he needs to leave milan if he wants to get back to his best.
one of the problems this year is him and inzaghi couldn't play together, but ancelotti tried that out for like 2 months. so like the first 8-9 games gila didn't have one league goal, then after january he was rested here and there for the cl, so didn't always play in the league. hence, 12 goals from open play this season, pretty poor given his expectations when he moved. he's been disappointing, no doubt.

[Spartak]

You give Tevez a free pass when he was played out of position for Pardew but refuse to do so for Rooney when he is played out of position in Europe? To top it all, doing so in a season where Rooney has posted his best European goal total and one in which he got a brace against your own side. Unbelievable.
Pardew wasn't just playing him out of position he was sometimes not playing him at all. And you make it seem like Rooney is a striker and he's being forced to play as a defender. Fact is, most of Rooney's games with ManU in Europe and with the England NT have been in his best position, playing just behind a center forward(Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Owen, Crouch, etc.). Occasionally(more so this year) he's forced to play as a lone forward but it's rarely the case.

And one game(Rooney versus Milan at OT) doesn't erase the previous two years where Rooney never shown up in the CL. He's also failed to score for England in a competitive match in a long while.

Besides all that, if I just look at the players attributes I really don't see one aspect of Rooney's game that's better than Carlitos. Sorry if you disagree but thats what I thought 3 years ago and nothing has changed since then.

[Seaside Mafia]

Without having checked the facts, Ferguson has played 4-5-1 increasingly in Europe and in some of the more challenging domestic games this season. This has consisitently required Rooney to play up front on his own - which he can't do. The only time this formation seemd to work was when Ferguson played Smith up front on his own.

[United Pumps]

Pardew wasn't just playing him out of position he was sometimes not playing him at all. And you make it seem like Rooney is a striker and he's being forced to play as a defender. Fact is, most of Rooney's games with ManU in Europe and with the England NT have been in his best position, playing just behind a center forward(Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Owen, Crouch, etc.). Occasionally(more so this year) he's forced to play as a lone forward but it's rarely the case.
Somebody who has no knowledge of Rooney being forced to play on the left wing shouldn't be this certain of themselves whilst in a debate about Rooney.

[Spartak]

Somebody who has no knowledge of Rooney being forced to play on the left wing shouldn't be this certain of themselves whilst in a debate about Rooney.
Umm, I've watched ManU play quite a lot this year and most of the time you had a guy named Giggs playing on the left wing. Ever heard of him? And occasionally Ronaldo would play there as well. You guys love making excuses for this guy. What's next, he had to break in new boots.

[United Pumps]

Umm, I've watched ManU play quite a lot this year and most of the time you had a guy named Giggs playing on the left wing. Ever heard of him? And occasionally Ronaldo would play there as well. You guys love making excuses for this guy. What's next, he had to break in new boots.
Giggs plays behind Saha or the lone striker in Europe.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Pardew wasn't just playing him out of position he was sometimes not playing him at all. And you make it seem like Rooney is a striker and he's being forced to play as a defender. Fact is, most of Rooney's games with ManU in Europe and with the England NT have been in his best position, playing just behind a center forward(Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Owen, Crouch, etc.). Occasionally(more so this year) he's forced to play as a lone forward but it's rarely the case.

And one game(Rooney versus Milan at OT) doesn't erase the previous two years where Rooney never shown up in the CL. He's also failed to score for England in a competitive match in a long while.

Besides all that, if I just look at the players attributes I really don't see one aspect of Rooney's game that's better than Carlitos. Sorry if you disagree but thats what I thought 3 years ago and nothing has changed since then.

Sorry Spartak but you are clearly incorrect. While this year he has mainly played as a lone striker due to injuries, he was almost always used on the wing in Europe. At the start of the season, when he was recovering from his pre-WC injury, he spent a fair amount of domestic time on the wing as well. It is a slightly different story for England but he is often dumped as a lone striker or partnered with someone who operates in his area (Crouch, etc), with Gerrard and Lampard aimlessly running into him. The story of Wayne Rooney is one in which he is regularly misued. I also notice how you have fallen into the bash player 'a' to promote player 'b' trap.

[Spartak]

Sorry Spartak but you are clearly incorrect. While this year he has mainly played as a lone striker due to injuries, he was almost always used on the wing in Europe. At the start of the season, when he was recovering from his pre-WC injury, he spent a fair amount of domestic time on the wing as well. It is a slightly different story for England but he is often dumped as a lone striker or partnered with someone who operates in his area (Crouch, etc), with Gerrard and Lampard aimlessly running into him. The story of Wayne Rooney is one in which he is regularly misued. I also notice how you have fallen into the bash player 'a' to promote player 'b' trap.
I've seen the way ManU lines up in those situations and you are using the word "wing" very liberally. He sometimes plays behind a striker on the left side but it's not as a winger. This position is more similar to Ronaldinho at Barca. I find it funny that people always say Rooney is being played out of position no matter where you play him. You play him up top and you say he's better withdrawn. You play him in midfield and then you say he's better further forward.

And I don't see how I bashed him. I'm posting in a thread comparing Tevez and Rooney. I feel Tevez is better and I gave some reasons. If you can't handle me criticizing Rooney then don't come in this thread. If I say I think Ronaldinho is better than Kaka' does that mean I'm "bashing" Kaka'? I think I'm fairly unbiased comparing these two players. When both players burst onto the scene I was an immediate fan of both players. Check what I wrote back at Euro 2004. I thought Rooney was the player of the tournament though the group stage. But since that point I really haven't seen that much improvement from him.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I don't understand where all of the attitude is coming from but I will ignore it. Rooney playing on the wing is exactly that, him on the wing. Obviously he will try to get forward but he has the tactical discipline to track back and not get caught out of position. It is a credit to him but limits his attacking impact, which is why he has struggled in Europe. It is well known on our board and it even got to the point where people, myself included, wanted him to be benched and used as an impact player if we were not going to use him correctly from the start. You might be thinking of recently when either by design or accident, we stumbled across a variant of the system that worked. That is the only time he has been given the freedom to roam inside, switch positions and get forward. I'm not going to get into an argument with you over positioning because it has been covered on numerous occasions previously.

If you cannot recognise what you did or what this entire thread has been about then I have nothing else to say. It's simply not worth the effort. If you would like to see an impartial and fair comparison then search for the previous thread. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

[United Pumps]

You play him in midfield and then you say he's better further forward.
That's never happened.

[jcsd]

I've seen the way ManU lines up in those situations and you are using the word "wing" very liberally. He sometimes plays behind a striker on the left side but it's not as a winger. This position is more similar to Ronaldinho at Barca. I find it funny that people always say Rooney is being played out of position no matter where you play him. You play him up top and you say he's better withdrawn. You play him in midfield and then you say he's better further forward.

Rooney oftenm plays for Man Utd in the midfield as a winger on both the left and right sides

And I don't see how I bashed him. I'm posting in a thread comparing Tevez and Rooney. I feel Tevez is better and I gave some reasons. If you can't handle me criticizing Rooney then don't come in this thread. If I say I think Ronaldinho is better than Kaka' does that mean I'm "bashing" Kaka'? I think I'm fairly unbiased comparing these two players. When both players burst onto the scene I was an immediate fan of both players. Check what I wrote back at Euro 2004. I thought Rooney was the player of the tournament though the group stage. But since that point I really haven't seen that much improvement from him.

Rooney improved massively in 2004-05, 2005-2006 seasons, this season he's probably not had quite a good season as he did in 2005-2006, but he's sill been one of the best players in the Premiership this season.

As for Tevez, he only really madse his impact on West Ham towards the end of the season, by which time he did indeed look like a quality player, but for people who watch the Premeirship regularly there's not much debate that Rooney is the better player.