Format Change/Personnel Implications

[JoeW]

Okay, let's assume that the 442 switch is mostly permanent. Let's take a look at our personnel, how they're playing now and how much it seems to make sense:

Backline: Erpen is clearly better as a central defender in a 442 than an outside defender in a 352. Boswell probably benefits from a central mate. Namoff can get forward. Gros can get forward. And while it's convenient to argue that Galindo's goal shows Gros can't play outside back, Soehn pointed out that Gros' legs were gone at that point but he left him in hoping he'd gut it out. In reserve, it's unclear if McTavish is a good enough outside back for a 442 (where speed and the ability to get forward matter). Wilson is probably well suited for a 442. DeRoux--is future on the team may effectively be as an outside defender (see midfield comments). I'm not sure if he's good enough to play this role but our midfield formation probably means he needs to play on the backline.

Diamond Midfield: great fit for a couple of players and questionable for many others. It puts Gomez near the strikers, should give him better service and we'll see if he ends up with more space (as some players asserted--I'm personally skeptical). Fred and Olsen--this is a good fit. They don't play true wide mids but instead are pinching in so it's like 2 central holding mids with responsibility for winning balls and distribution. Both are nasty enough, work hard and have skills. But the back piece of the diamond (the D-mid), that remains to be seen if we have 1 player who can carry that weight (without a running mate of the 352 formation). Maybe that is Simms. Maybe Carroll's game will rebound. But right now, I'm worried that against an in-form A-mid with talent, our D-mid will be badly overmatched. Rest of our midfield subs: Justine Moose is a great sub for Olsen or Fred b/c he works hard, is quick and is better centrally than as a wing back or N-S runner. Probably a bad fit for DeRoux (who is more N-S). Maybe a bad fit for Casal (I think he prefers to play wider than pinch in and be a ball winning--the 352 is probably a better fit for him). Here's the deal--Gros is a good wide midfielder but do I see him being effective in that pinched in role (which is more about ball winning, first touch and distribution)--I don't. If we continue to play that pinched diamond and Gros isn't at outside back, I don't he there is room for him in the midfield (even if Fred were to play A-mid for some reason).

Forwards: I don't think the 442 formation switch really affects the forward roles much--who has played lately is about form and rotating players.

Also, I think it's now obvious from the past 3 games that Soehn is willing to rotate players and also play young guys.

[Hedbal]

I know the idea is to play Gomez as the front "point" of the midfield diamond, close to the forwards, but he spent a lot of time very deep today and wasn't in a good position to make that last killer pass. Perhaps he thought he had to run back to escape the defensive pressure.:confused:

[JoeSoccerFan]

he also spent some time at the right mf, as well.

no problem with this - he should and the rest of the team should be flexible to adapt to other positions.....

[sitruc]

I know the idea is to play Gomez as the front "point" of the midfield diamond, close to the forwards, but he spent a lot of time very deep today and wasn't in a good position to make that last killer pass. Perhaps he thought he had to run back to escape the defensive pressure.:confused:

Gomez understands how teams and players are playing him, I just don't think he completely understands or is capable(whether surrounding players allow or mentally) of beating the defenses being used yet.
Yes, it's been a little frustrating because it seems every team has been man-marking me so I think I have to be more intelligent on the field and play more to the flanks and let other players, like Benny, have more space in the middle so he can create.

[GoDC]

Didn't Casal go to right back when deRoux came in?? I think Casal is the one who is flexible and deRoux is going to have to find time in the midfield.

[John L]

Didn't Casal go to right back when deRoux came in?? I think Casal is the one who is flexible and deRoux is going to have to find time in the midfield.

Deroux came in and Gomez came out - Casals went from Left to Right Outside Mid with Deroux as the Left - Olsen came into the middle - He was often in the middle so that Gomez could try to operate from the Wing - They switched fairly often in the first Half - With Fred's injury, I think it fell to Olsen to be Plan B when Gomez has to come out - And many team often switch their outside Mids from Right to Left to look for better chemistry or match-ups

JoeW's Review - pretty solid analysis

Gros' main problem as the Left Fullback is that he's not a natural Fullback (outside or inside), he's really a converted outside Halfback - A converted halfback as a Right Fullback is using his right foot against the left foot of a forward, and he's more comfortable in that - But a converted halfback on the Left is facing the right foot of the opposing Forward, and if the defender is not naturally Left-footed, he's at a disadvantage - This is really vulnerable in a 3-5-2, but much less so in a 4-4-2 (with a relatively flat-back four like we have) - Gros will be fine back there - He adds overlapping hustle down the wing - And as McTavish returns (and/or Wilson), there'll be good opportunities for rotations

A Diamond Midfield also allows our top three midfielders to be midfielders - Gomez is The Main Guy, but Olsen and at least Fred are also quite capable coming into the middle to be a playmaker - They're Midfielders who happen to be out on the Wing - I'm not sure about Moose or Casals or Deroux though - Ironically, Freddy would have excelled in this situation

[the_phlip]

I have to say that even though he is young and maybe still needs to get a feel for the team Casal played a helluva game!

Kpene also contributed by his hustle and I can say that I am comfortable with both Moreno and Gomez coming in off the bench.

Give Ben the captain's armband! IMO he is the soul of this team...drop him back so he can become more of a "general" on the field...

442!

See you all from the Mezzanine!

[GoDC]

Deroux came in and Gomez came out - Casals went from Left to Right Outside Mid with Deroux as the Left - Olsen came into the middle - He was often in the middle so that Gomez could try to operate from the Wing - They switched fairly often in the first Half - With Fred's injury, I think it fell to Olsen to be Plan B when Gomez has to come out - And many team often switch their outside Mids from Right to Left to look for better chemistry or match-ups

JoeW's Review - pretty solid analysis

Gros' main problem as the Left Fullback is that he's not a natural Fullback (outside or inside), he's really a converted outside Halfback - A converted halfback as a Right Fullback is using his right foot against the left foot of a forward, and he's more comfortable in that - But a converted halfback on the Left is facing the right foot of the opposing Forward, and if the defender is not naturally Left-footed, he's at a disadvantage - This is really vulnerable in a 3-5-2, but much less so in a 4-4-2 (with a relatively flat-back four like we have) - Gros will be fine back there - He adds overlapping hustle down the wing - And as McTavish returns (and/or Wilson), there'll be good opportunities for rotations

A Diamond Midfield also allows our top three midfielders to be midfielders - Gomez is The Main Guy, but Olsen and at least Fred are also quite capable coming into the middle to be a playmaker - They're Midfielders who happen to be out on the Wing - I'm not sure about Moose or Casals or Deroux though - Ironically, Freddy would have excelled in this situation

Oh yeah. Namoff didn't come out did he!!! Casal was just playing pretty deep but given the game situation that makes sense.

[EdsonArantes]

How do folks feel about trying this out?

------------Troy--------

Gros---Erpen---Boswell---Namoff

----------Olsen-------

--------Fred---Casal-------

----------Gomez--------

--------Emilio---Kpene-------

We use Casal in more of an attacking role in the first half, get some balls in to the top 3. Olsen starts at D-mid, second half Simms comes in for either Casal or Fred, Olsen moves up to more of an attacking mid, Simms becomes the D-mid. Moreno coming in for Kpene in 60th-70th min as a super-sub. Third sub options...Moose for Fred/Casal, Addlery for somebody, deroux for Gomez/Fred/Casal only if we need to bunker down on defense.

[nobletea]

A Diamond Midfield also allows our top three midfielders to be midfielders - Gomez is The Main Guy, but Olsen and at least Fred are also quite capable coming into the middle to be a playmaker - They're Midfielders who happen to be out on the Wing - I'm not sure about Moose or Casals or Deroux though - Ironically, Freddy would have excelled in this situation

Yep. Part of the reason some of us were talking about 442 before this year.

[elconejito]

Why is it that whether we are in a 352 or a 442 that we still end up funnelling into the center of the field?

I think for us to get really good consistent width throughout a game we need to start both Gros and Casal on the wings. Unfortunately, that means Ben and/or Fred would have to sit. I don't see that happenning.

And even then, I wonder if the instructions from the coach are to go central seeing as how *everybody* does it...

The 442 really helps Olsen out as he can play the wing again if he chooses to. He couldn't handle the whole flank if we were in a 352 (not enuf wheels anymore), but with a defender behind him he can be really effective there for us. As JohnL pointed out, Freddy would have really excelled in this too.

[JoeW]

Why is it that whether we are in a 352 or a 442 that we still end up funnelling into the center of the field?

I think for us to get really good consistent width throughout a game we need to start both Gros and Casal on the wings. Unfortunately, that means Ben and/or Fred would have to sit. I don't see that happenning.

And even then, I wonder if the instructions from the coach are to go central seeing as how *everybody* does it...

The 442 really helps Olsen out as he can play the wing again if he chooses to. He couldn't handle the whole flank if we were in a 352 (not enuf wheels anymore), but with a defender behind him he can be really effective there for us. As JohnL pointed out, Freddy would have really excelled in this too.

Except that Soehn wisely acknowledges that we probably can't play that kind of 442. Olsen and Fred aren't wide players. Gomez doesn't have the work-rate and ball-winning abilities to play a central mid role and we don't have a D-mid (possibly Simms) who can be a destroyer, cover that much ground and a good tackler while distributing well.

So instead, we have Fred and Olsen pinch in and they actually play twin-central mid/holding mid roles (win balls, distribute wisely, create when they get the chance) which allows Gomez to play right behind the forwards or to meander around to find space (like to the wings for instance). Those pinched-in mids also provide high support for our lone D-mid.

Our only wide play is going to come from Namoff and Gros as outside backs. When we put on a DeRoux or Casal at outside mid, than our wide play will improve but our defensive help in the center and service to Gomez will suffer (Gomez will have to drop deeper and work more at winning the ball).

[elconejito]

Except that Soehn wisely acknowledges that we probably can't play that kind of 442. Olsen and Fred aren't wide players. Gomez doesn't have the work-rate and ball-winning abilities to play a central mid role and we don't have a D-mid (possibly Simms) who can be a destroyer, cover that much ground and a good tackler while distributing well.

So instead, we have Fred and Olsen pinch in and they actually play twin-central mid/holding mid roles (win balls, distribute wisely, create when they get the chance) which allows Gomez to play right behind the forwards or to meander around to find space (like to the wings for instance). Those pinched-in mids also provide high support for our lone D-mid.

Our only wide play is going to come from Namoff and Gros as outside backs. When we put on a DeRoux or Casal at outside mid, than our wide play will improve but our defensive help in the center and service to Gomez will suffer (Gomez will have to drop deeper and work more at winning the ball).
OK, so following the logic that we can't play wide because we don't have central midfielders who can "hold their own" without help. And acknowledging that as a result all four midfielders will be bunched up in the middle... How in the world are we supposed to beat any team that "bunkers" against us? Their primary goal is to clog the middle and here we go walking right into it, no questions asked.

In order to have an effective (IMO) offense we need flank play, and if that means we need to replace our guys in the center Gomez and Carroll, then maybe thats an option we need to look at.

When Fred comes back, he would be a great choice at the CAM spot, but I don't know who we would put behind him that could hold it down. Anyone still interested in Joseph? ;)

[nobletea]

Our only wide play is going to come from Namoff and Gros as outside backs. When we put on a DeRoux or Casal at outside mid, than our wide play will improve but our defensive help in the center and service to Gomez will suffer (Gomez will have to drop deeper and work more at winning the ball).

Very true, and we've seen some of this already. But I think with Fred/Ben you can simply have them play diagonally. When in posession you sprint out to the side and spread the field, when not in posession you pinch in and force them out wide and contain until the defense is set.

Requires a lot of running and reasonaly two-way midfielders, but I think it works better for our players out wide than the 352.

We'll see.

[DCFAN96]

What I'd like to see if we stick with the 442.

GK and Backline:

----------Perkins
Namoff--Erpen--Boz-Gros

I don't want Gros and Erpen on the same side, neither is that great defending so balance each out with a good defender next to them (i.e. Namoff and Boz)

Midfield:
--------Simms
--Fred--Gomez--Casal

I know its still too early to starting penciling Casal in but bottomline the guy gives us width and a legitimate threat on the wing. I love Olsen but IMO Simms covers a lot more ground and actually passes the forward. No need to go with a dual dm pairing with four in the back.

Frontline:

-----Emilio--Kpene

Moreno is our supersub, or at least I hope he is. Jaime just isn't offering much, we can't afford to start the guy when hes gonna be standing around 80 minutes of the match.

Bench:
We actually look pretty deep now, Moreno, Olsen, Carroll, Addlery, Moose, McTavish, Wilson, they'd all do fine in a pinch.

[AlecW81]

United NEEDS either Bennie or Moreno to be on the field. Period. Those guys are the heart of the team. You have no leadership on the field without them. Gomez can't be that player because he simply chooses not to be. I don't believe you want Boz to be the on-field general because he likely won't be around next year. So then you're looking at either Gros, or Namoff as the captain... You don't put the armband on a player in their first season with the club (unless it's Claudio Reyna or someone of his caliber).

[DCU1996]

I think 4 Back line with 1 lone striker system fits nicely with DC .
Emilio is well capable of the 1 top role, and the 5 mids(2 D-mids and 3 A-mids) will possess the ball and control the mid.


------------Troy--------

Gros---Erpen---Boswell---Namoff (Wilson)

-----Olsen----Caroll-------- (Simms)

Fred-----Gomez-----Casal- (Moose, Deroux)

----------Emilio-------- (Moreno)

[Hedbal]

I think 4 Back line with 1 lone striker system fits nicely with DC .
Emilio is well capable of the 1 top role, and the 5 mids(2 D-mids and 3 A-mids) will possess the ball and control the mid.


------------Troy--------

Gros---Erpen---Boswell---Namoff (Wilson)

-----Olsen----Caroll-------- (Simms)

Fred-----Gomez-----Casal- (Moose, Deroux)

----------Emilio-------- (Moreno)

No way Namoff gets bumped by Wilson or anyone else. He has been our best defender by far this year.

[DCU1996]

No way Namoff gets bumped by Wilson or anyone else. He has been our best defender by far this year.

uh... so where's the gurantee he'll not get injured ever...

[JoeW]

OK, so following the logic that we can't play wide because we don't have central midfielders who can "hold their own" without help. And acknowledging that as a result all four midfielders will be bunched up in the middle... How in the world are we supposed to beat any team that "bunkers" against us? Their primary goal is to clog the middle and here we go walking right into it, no questions asked.

In order to have an effective (IMO) offense we need flank play, and if that means we need to replace our guys in the center Gomez and Carroll, then maybe thats an option we need to look at.

When Fred comes back, he would be a great choice at the CAM spot, but I don't know who we would put behind him that could hold it down. Anyone still interested in Joseph? ;)

1. I totally agree that we need wide play. That's invaluable to this team on so many levels (breaks down the bunkers, punishes teams for man-marking Gomez or congesting midfield, plays to Emilio's strengths, gives our younger players on the outside more time and space to read the play and make decisions rather than operating in tight space where a bad first touch equals a turnover, etc.). It looks like (if we stay with the pinched diamond) that we're going to count on our outside backs to provide our wide play (with some assists from our A-mid and outside mids who will sometimes wander outside).

2. If we're going to play a 442 (especially if our outside mids play wider) than Shalrie Joseph would be perfect. He and Gomez together in that scheme (with wide mids) would be so good, the league would have to declare them illegal. But for that to make sense, it would mean not having Olsen (b/c he doesn't have the jets to play that wide outside mid role) and another young player (probably Casal) would have to step up.

3. One other implication of this scheme: if we're going to play Gros and Namoff at outside back and ask them to be our wide offense that we desperately need some more depth there. No, I don't mean the defensive depth that so many posters have been talking about. I mean that it's like playing a 352, asking the wingbacks to run all day and be your width and then not having any reserves at wingback. If either Namoff or Gros goes down or accumulates cards, we have no coverage there. Soehn said that Gros had dead leagues by the time he gave up that goal to Galindo but he didn't want to sub him out and was hoping he could just gut it out. If we're going to ask Namoff and Gros to play that role, that means we're going to be subbing them a lot. Wilson is a reasonable sub. He's got speed, is a veteran and can go forward. Prideaux is a versatile guy but I don't see him as having been a great fit for this role. McTavish, in this scheme, is our backup central defender for Boswell and Erpen. It's not just an outside defender we need, we need "Arena defenders" (think of who Bruce Arena used as outside backs for the NT: Albright, Hejduk, Cherundolo, Dunnivant--guys with motors and some speed who can get up and down the field. He also used Lewis and Convey in that role.) That position/role calls for someone with a high workrate who can get up and down the field. Maybe DeRoux gets converted. Maybe Jeff Carroll. Maybe our new trialist works out. Maybe Chang and Kasper bring back some Chinese carryout from their trip or Kasper snags some speedy Kielbasa from his Polish excursion--who knows?