Evaluating The Club's Strength

[Liverpool_SC]

What do you think? Are we headed in the right direction? I think the team is playing better as a unit. Defense is a tad better in general (though no improvement statistically from last season) due to the maturing of Agger and the strengthening of depth at the fullback positions (Arbeloa and Aurelio are solid, though not spectacular).

Personally I think that Pennant has been decent, though no world-beater. I would be happier if he were a squad player (based on his quality) rather than a guy who figures in 50 games. We are just as up in the air at the left wing position. Bolo Zenden, Harry Kewell ver 2.0b, 'deputy' Riise and others are still not championship quality. Kewell may get back to great form, but it is not something we can count on. Hopefully little Luis Garcia gets back to top form. We have missed him at times.

The rest of our midfield is excellent. Poor or middling form from Sissoko and Alonso have not hindered us because we can throw out a central pair of Gerrard and Mascherano. It is almost embarrassing and I reckon if we had Mascherano all season, we would have picked up 5 - 6 points early in the season when we were really quite weak in that area of the field.

That leaves us with the forwards. Some, what, 16m - 18m pounds later, our goal return this season is going to be no better than it was last season. Granted we have gotten more goals from our strikers, so the overall goal total has been a tad misleading. But we still don't have the unit at forward that we need. Kuyt is a great player and worthy of the Red shirt. But he is much more of a Heskey-type support player than he is a goalscorer. And Bellamy is just as maddening as Cisse and Baros ... perhaps more because I think he really is a better player ... his mentality is just that screwed up. Crouch remains our best pure goalscorer, but he is not a prototypical EPL forward.

I sure hope that Alexsey Voronin is not all Rafa has in mind for the forward position moving into 2007/8. We must, of course, dispose of Cisse, FSP and (as all signs indicate) Fowler and Bellamy in the close season, so that does leave a slot open. But I certainly hope it is filled with an out-and-out goalscorer. I was beating that drum for a long time, but I find that even Liverpool's most sympathetic pundits are beating it as well. Why only last week during the Chelsea match, Jan Molby was touting none other than Miroslav Klose (ducking). Villa, Anelka, Berbetov, Eto'o (ha), Defoe (please no) and a number of other strikers across Europe would do for me as well.

But I would love to have a striker with a penchant for scoring with his noggin (considering the service Finnan, Gerrard, Pennant and Aurelio have provided this year ... the best team crossing I have seen over the past donkey's years for 'Pool and no one with conviction to finish it). Crouch can score some nice headers from time to time, but I still contend that Luis Garcia is our best attacker at heading the ball on goal with conviction ... a sad state for the team. His inability to head the ball well on goal is probably my greatest frustration with Kuyt, as he met my expectations in other areas (granted I never counted on him for more than 10 - 12 league goals).

Our defense has been good enough for us to move up the table. It has been first or second best the past several seasons. Our attack is not good enough. We must find more ways to get goals against non-ambitious (read bunkering or everything but bunkering) teams when on the road.

A word should be mentioned regarding the improvement of the youth teams. Heighway is great and I am sad he is moving on. Rafa is surely too busy to have a direct role with youth coaching. But I am glad to see how well Rafa is scouting the world for elite youth talent and securing their services at an age when Melwood can impact their growth the most. I am also pleased to see how well many of the local boys are doing in Reserve League and Youth competitions. I don't think we are on level with Arsenal at young player talent development. But I wager their are few other teams who are better (despite the seemingly endless array of talented youngsters that crop up year after year in the West Ham and Citeh systems).

Furthermore, the ownership situation and coaching system are in great shape. I am far more confident that Rafa is not looking over his shoulder at Real Madrid and I think that our owners (while naive) are committed and ambitious and wise enough to rely on the insight of Parry, Rafa and (even) David Moores.

All this being said ... I still think we must contend for the championship this year or next. There is no time (with this cycle of players) to wait 3 or 4. StevieG, Carra, Finnan and the other 'heart and soul' type players on the side are at their peak right now. I agree other guys will continue to improve, but these guys are the best chance to lead us to a title and they are not going to be as able to physically drive the team the way they do now in 3 - 4 years. Add the attacking talent we need NOW (left wing and/or attacking left back and ESPECIALLY an out-and-out goalscorer) and quit wasting 6 - 8 points in the first 1/3 season and I figure we should be closer to a genuine title chase.

[liverbird]

What do you think? Are we headed in the right direction? I think the team is playing better as a unit. Defense is a tad better in general (though no improvement statistically from last season) due to the maturing of Agger and the strengthening of depth at the fullback positions (Arbeloa and Aurelio are solid, though not spectacular).

Personally I think that Pennant has been decent, though no world-beater. I would be happier if he were a squad player (based on his quality) rather than a guy who figures in 50 games. We are just as up in the air at the left wing position. Bolo Zenden, Harry Kewell ver 2.0b, 'deputy' Riise and others are still not championship quality. Kewell may get back to great form, but it is not something we can count on. Hopefully little Luis Garcia gets back to top form. We have missed him at times.

The rest of our midfield is excellent. Poor or middling form from Sissoko and Alonso have not hindered us because we can throw out a central pair of Gerrard and Mascherano. It is almost embarrassing and I reckon if we had Mascherano all season, we would have picked up 5 - 6 points early in the season when we were really quite weak in that area of the field.

That leaves us with the forwards. Some, what, 16m - 18m pounds later, our goal return this season is going to be no better than it was last season. Granted we have gotten more goals from our strikers, so the overall goal total has been a tad misleading. But we still don't have the unit at forward that we need. Kuyt is a great player and worthy of the Red shirt. But he is much more of a Heskey-type support player than he is a goalscorer. And Bellamy is just as maddening as Cisse and Baros ... perhaps more because I think he really is a better player ... his mentality is just that screwed up. Crouch remains our best pure goalscorer, but he is not a prototypical EPL forward.

I sure hope that Alexsey Voronin is not all Rafa has in mind for the forward position moving into 2007/8. We must, of course, dispose of Cisse, FSP and (as all signs indicate) Fowler and Bellamy in the close season, so that does leave a slot open. But I certainly hope it is filled with an out-and-out goalscorer. I was beating that drum for a long time, but I find that even Liverpool's most sympathetic pundits are beating it as well. Why only last week during the Chelsea match, Jan Molby was touting none other than Miroslav Klose (ducking). Villa, Anelka, Berbetov, Eto'o (ha), Defoe (please no) and a number of other strikers across Europe would do for me as well.

But I would love to have a striker with a penchant for scoring with his noggin (considering the service Finnan, Gerrard, Pennant and Aurelio have provided this year ... the best team crossing I have seen over the past donkey's years for 'Pool and no one with conviction to finish it). Crouch can score some nice headers from time to time, but I still contend that Luis Garcia is our best attacker at heading the ball on goal with conviction ... a sad state for the team. His inability to head the ball well on goal is probably my greatest frustration with Kuyt, as he met my expectations in other areas (granted I never counted on him for more than 10 - 12 league goals).

Our defense has been good enough for us to move up the table. It has been first or second best the past several seasons. Our attack is not good enough. We must find more ways to get goals against non-ambitious (read bunkering or everything but bunkering) teams when on the road.

A word should be mentioned regarding the improvement of the youth teams. Heighway is great and I am sad he is moving on. Rafa is surely too busy to have a direct role with youth coaching. But I am glad to see how well Rafa is scouting the world for elite youth talent and securing their services at an age when Melwood can impact their growth the most. I am also pleased to see how well many of the local boys are doing in Reserve League and Youth competitions. I don't think we are on level with Arsenal at young player talent development. But I wager their are few other teams who are better (despite the seemingly endless array of talented youngsters that crop up year after year in the West Ham and Citeh systems).

Furthermore, the ownership situation and coaching system are in great shape. I am far more confident that Rafa is not looking over his shoulder at Real Madrid and I think that our owners (while naive) are committed and ambitious and wise enough to rely on the insight of Parry, Rafa and (even) David Moores.

All this being said ... I still think we must contend for the championship this year or next. There is no time (with this cycle of players) to wait 3 or 4. StevieG, Carra, Finnan and the other 'heart and soul' type players on the side are at their peak right now. I agree other guys will continue to improve, but these guys are the best chance to lead us to a title and they are not going to be as able to physically drive the team the way they do now in 3 - 4 years. Add the attacking talent we need NOW (left wing and/or attacking left back and ESPECIALLY an out-and-out goalscorer) and quit wasting 6 - 8 points in the first 1/3 season and I figure we should be closer to a genuine title chase.

Damn, I find myself writing that there is little or nothing that I disagree with in this (lengthy) post. Indeed, I must assert that you've done a good job of stating where we are now.

I think that Mascherano, Agger and Kuijt make us much stronger. Bellamy seems a bust. I'd not be surprised if we keep him, as a second year might be the charm . A great striker is a must addition though. We need to solve the left wing problem. Kewell might be the answer if he'd only stay healthy. Gonzalez seems to be incapable of effectively turning in on his off foot. The entire league is thus simply sheparding him down the touch line.

Other than that, I think we are solid. Paletta and Insua look to be potentially excellent players for us. Young Hammill has done very well in Scotland. Anderson and Lindfield need to be blooded next year and see if they are ready. I think the future is bright and the future is RED!

[usscouse]

That's a pretty good evaluation from you guys.
I'm a little unsure of Bellamy, he seems to be having problems adjusting to the team.

Perhaps if he went to Ref's school and they sat him down with a bunch of tapes of his offside calls and patiently explained where he had gone wrong...........Nah! He'd just get pissed and want to pout.

I wouldn't mind if he started his run from an onside position and got caught by a bad pass or he slightly mistimed the run through the defense. But. No!
He stand 5 yards offside and then starts his run. Then yells at the guy who passed to him as well as the linesman and the ref. He just needs help.

[dcc134]

How many current Liverpool players would start for either Chelsea of Man U?

Maybe 4 or 5, certainly not more.

How many would make their squads?

10? Maybe.

If we want to win the league, you need to have pretty damn close to the best squad. For all the positives of the team, we still have the 3rd or 4th best squad in the league. That needs to change.

Striker and the left side of the field need significant up grades.

[ForeverRed]

We don't need much to compete for the title:

1. A 20+ goalscorer is a must of course, as you guys mentioned already. Preferably, someone in the vein of Berbatov, Klose or Eto'o who do a lot more than simply scoring goals. Rotating strikers as Rafa has done this season doesn't really help overall team chemistry. There needs to be a core 11 that starts and really develops their game and are able to read each other like Manchester this year or Arsenal some 2-3 years ago.

2. A solid, consistent left winger who can keep up with the likes of Gerrard, Alonso and Kuyt. Zenden is way past his peak and doesn't offer much besides a good workrate, Gonzalez doesn't look like he's coming along well at all (maybe he needs even more time to adapt) and I really doubt Kewell will get back to his best. It's difficult for anyone recover from that many injuries.

- Garcia shouldn't be our LM but a great utility player. Someone we can bring on when we need or start in games where we can use his attributes. He's too inconsistent to be a core player.

Besides those two aspects I really don't think we need much else. Finnan, Carragher and Agger are all fantastic and Riise will remain our LB option with Aurelio or Arbeloa fitting in. We all know our biggest strength is our central midfield, a category in which there aren't many teams who can say have so much quality. Pennant is coming along well and can really turn into a class player if he works on his crossing and gets some standard playing time.

[Morph]

We are heading in the right direction, slowly but surely we are getting there. If you are a half glass empty person then this season has been a step backwards in terms of points earned and the football played. I am a half glass full type of person so I’ll say we have made progress. Have we made progress in terms of the league?

I don’t think so, we probably haven’t done as well points wise as last season, but Rafa has changed the dynamics of the team from a defensive based team to an attacking based team with a solid defensive structure. Rafa’s main transfer signings were of an attacking mindset and to make the transition from defence to attack whilst striking the fine line of a perfect balance between the two is never easy.

The introduction of wing play has taken some getting used to and took a while for it to be used efficiently and effectively. There’s also an argument to suggest that our wing play is a long way off of being extremely effective.

I like Pennant and would be reluctant and spending money on a position I don’t think needs strengthening. Pennant might not be a Cristiano Ronaldo, but he is effective and since he has gained confidence, he shown what he is capable of producing. He is beating players, he’s being a bit more selfish when it comes to have a shot on goal and his crossing has been quite accurate. Rafa then has the option of playing Gerrard on the right if he chooses. I am more concerned with addressing other positions than right midfield, as I feel this is our strongest flank and the understanding between Pennant and Arbeloa and Pennant and Finnan is very promising.

As for the left flank, it definitely needs addressing, left back is not too bad, Aurelio seems competent, his injury came at a bad time and will have no doubt hampered some of his confidence. Riise is the weak chain in the defence, but it’s not often he is humiliated at left back, he is quite steady. I will not be unhappy should Benitez bring in a stern and solid left back who takes no prisoners. As for this ‘players are not championship material quality’ to me is pure nonsense. You do not need twenty players of sheer ability to win Championships. That said I do feel some of the players we house are not good enough, such players as Dudek, Zenden, Fowler and these players should be replaced with better players in their positions. I think we are three or four players of off an outstanding team.

As for Kewell, he’s a fantastic player when on form and when he is playing, that period last season when we beat Chelsea in the FA cup final, I thought Kewell was one of our best players. He scored that scorcher against Tottenham and that fabulous strike against Everton. As you say he is pretty unreliable with injuries and he isn’t getting any younger, which is why I want Gonzales to feature more. I have faith in Mark and I hope he is a success here. I am hoping Benitez is going to slowly, but surely blood Gonzales into the left flank position. Gonzales with Riise or Aurelio behind him isn’t a bad left flank, maybe another left winger needs to be bought in from the reserves – youth setup or from elsewhere to offer cover and offer Gonzales competition.

Luis Garcia is rather similar to Joe Cole (although Cole is the better player) he is useless for the full ninety minutes, however these two can produce a moment of magic which can turn a game upside down and inside out. He is definitely someone I’d keep at the club, because he can fill in, in most positions. I’m not sure he would mind having such a bit part role in the team seeing as he is friends with Benitez and he’s guaranteed to feature in important matches throughout the season.

We have the strongest central midfield foursome in world football, each player offers something different to the team. Mascherano is an anchorman who displays great positional sense and houses great distribution (even if it was off against Chelsea). Alonso is capable of scoring goals, playing Hollywood balls and is a fantastic and composed tackler of the ball. The amount of times I have seen someone in red making a last ditch tackle thinking it was our Jamie and it has been Alonso has been staggering. Then you have Gerrard (when not diving) is a superb player, he has everything, heart, passion, determination, grit, he scores goals, can produce a fine array of passing, commands well and is just an all-round talented player. Sissoko is the hard man of the midfield; he’ll happily pick up a yellow card for lunging into a challenge, just as long as he comes out with of the challenge with the ball. The drop point’s scenario is just hindsight; I don’t like hindsight as it highlights what you already know. Mascherano might or might not have helped us gain more points in certain games, but it’s best to lay it to rest and focus on making a stern challenge next season.

I’m disappointed with our signings of centre forwards this summer. I knew what we were signing, and I was still left wanting another Mickey Owen. Someone who can not be seen for about sixty minutes but in ten minutes is able to score several goals to win a match. Bellamy and Kuyt by admission will never be in that mould. Bellamy works hard and scores goals, but apart from one impressive season at Blackburn where he (almost/did) score twenty goals, he was not known to be prolific. Kuyt is prolific, but then he was always going to need to adapt to a new league and a twelve goal return this season isn’t to be laughed at. Crouch has shown he is capable of getting the goals and Gerrard in recent times has managed to break into double figures. We have three main channels of goals and when these channels run dry, we are left in serious trouble and to a team which relies on Gerrard that’s a big problem. We have too many proletariat and not enough bourgeois.

I cannot understand the Voronin signing, what’s the purpose of signing yet another provider when we are desperately crying out for an out and out goal poacher? I have watched this several times this season and he has been nothing short of shocking, in his defence Leverkusen haven’t looked brilliant this season either. I haven’t seen what Voronin can give us, which we don’t already have here at the moment. If he’s our only forward signing of the summer, I will have to start questioning Rafa’s judgement when it comes to signing strikers and his ambition towards the club.

Flo Po is gone mate; he’s gone to Recreativo on a permanent basis. Cisse will no doubt be sold for not even half the price we signed him for and if you were to believe reports in the newspapers then Bellamy as you say is gone too. I won’t list a set of strikers who we can sign because my knowledge on strikers is poor and generally players in general; I only really follow the Premiership and La Liga and the strikers in La Liga are generally rated around £85m.

I like Anelka and Yakubu, but something tells me, they won’t be coming to Anfield anytime soon. I too would love to sign a striker who is good in the air, we had one in Morientes but it didn’t work out. Kuyt is supposedly good on the head and Crouch seems to be improving, but as long as we score goals, I couldn’t careless if they were headers or taps ins, I just want us to play good and exciting football and to get results. I won’t comment on defence, as the record speaks for it self, but Reina has been a blessing since his arrival.

Our youth academy looks to doing well, but we’ll see if the out put is any good is when and if players come into the main set up and become accomplished first team players. We have a habit of housing a lot of “potential stars” but they end up being sold for 65k to Boston United or spend seasons out on loan and then are released.

I won’t continue further as I am sure anyone who has read this far will no doubt be bored to death by now, but I do agree with your final two paragraphs, we have a stable club with stable owners and now we have to make sure we are in contention. It’s been seventeen years since we last dominated the league and that’s just far too long for a club of our stature.

[liverbird]

good post, Morph

[Suss]

How many current Liverpool players would start for either Chelsea of Man U?

Maybe 4 or 5, certainly not more.

How many would make their squads?

10? Maybe.

If we want to win the league, you need to have pretty damn close to the best squad. For all the positives of the team, we still have the 3rd or 4th best squad in the league. That needs to change.

Striker and the left side of the field need significant up grades.

How many Chelsea or Man United players would start for Liverpool?

Okay, maybe you'd rather have Cech or VDS, but I have no complaints with Reina.

Would you replace Finnan? No. Carra or Agger? I wouldn't. Riise? Not sure. Any of our central midfielders. No. We would take one of their wingers and a striker, but thats what we all agree will be addressed in this summer's transfer window. So I would say we are maybe 2 players away from having a squad just as strong as our rivals. It also helps to have the best manager.

[quentinc]

How many current Liverpool players would start for either Chelsea of Man U?

Maybe 4 or 5, certainly not more.

How many would make their squads?

10? Maybe.
If this is the teamsheet:
Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Agger
Riise
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Kewell
Crouch
Kuyt

Dudek
Garcia
Hyppia
Mascherano
Bellamy

The only people I don't think Sir Alex and Mourinho could find a use for would be Dudek, Bellamy, and maybe Pennant. Not all of them may be starters, but then again, I don't think it would be easy for Claude Makelele to barge into the starting XI here anyway, but that doesn't mean he's not quality.

The point being: This is a daft argument to make. The only positions where you could legitimately say we're weaker than anyone else is forward and wing. We have one top-notch winger (Kewell), but his injuries mean we have to supplement him with something. Our forwards need change, clearly. As for Pennant, I honestly think we're fine. He's 24, starting to find his feet at LFC, and he does one thing really, really well (crossing), and alot of other things passably enough where I think he can start in tandem with Gerrard on the right. Garcia can also play there as well. I'd rather spend the money on a top-notch striker and better cover at left-wing than Simao or someone, running the risk, as we found with Morientes, Cisse (and possibly Gonzalez), that just because someone does well outside of England doesn't mean they'll do well once they get here. And 10 million pounds later everyone wants to know what all the fuss is all about.

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

There are a lot of words on this page, it took me awhile to read everyone's post. Here's my take:

I agree with everyone that is posted, we need a quality striker and a quality winger. I am also not sure about the left back position. Don't get me wrong, I am a big JAR fan, but his defensive skills are lacking when compared to our other defenders. Also, as much as I like Arbeloa, I want someone who can naturally play on the left and push forward to put in crosses.

I think our striker situation will look like this after this summer transfer window. Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin, and our new striker. I could possibly see Bellamy sticking around until next years January transfer window, but not much longer than that.

I just hope Rafa doesn't tinker with the things the team has right, just leave the central midfield and defense alone.

[Liverpool_SC]

I am also not sure about the left back position. Don't get me wrong, I am a big JAR fan, but his defensive skills are lacking when compared to our other defenders. Also, as much as I like Arbeloa, I want someone who can naturally play on the left and push forward to put in crosses.

I totally agree with you about Riise. I love his heart, but he is not as good as Clichy, Evra, Bridge or (when on form) Cashley Cole. He would be an elite squad player at left wing or left back, but he is too weak as a defender when off form.

I think our striker situation will look like this after this summer transfer window. Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin, and our new striker. I could possibly see Bellamy sticking around until next years January transfer window, but not much longer than that

This is how I see things bearing out. It may be tough to get rid of Bellamy for a reasonable price over the Summer. However, he will be in demand in the January window for some team worried about the relegation battle.

I just hope that we can get a good price for Cisse. I don't want it to turn into a Le Tallac or Diao situation where he is on loan for ever. I imagine that FSP is going to be purchased by Recreativo. They have an option that is apparently reasonable and he has played great for them in that league.

I just hope Rafa doesn't tinker with the things the team has right, just leave the central midfield and defense alone.

I am not so confident that Paletta will ever be great. He is awfully impetuous. I am more of a fan of Jack Hobbs.

I hope Rafa takes his kitty and spends it on 2 or 3 players at most ... buying the best players he can afford using that method. I can see him adding a few more youngsters at 1m or 2m ... but I don't want to see anymore Zenden, Gonzalez, Aurelio or Pennant type purchases ... not that those guys are useless. Only that our depth is such that players we add need to be elite starter types at Striker, Wing and possibly Left Back.

If Rafa really likes Alves, I don't mind if he signs him (a right wing) rather than a left (esp if he adds a really solid left back). But only if he is convinced Kewell is healthy and ready to contribute well. I don't want to see him mess around with any more 'system' type strikers, though. He needs to get a pure goalscorer and work him into the system (or work the system around him).

[Liverpool_SC]

Starting XI

GK: Reina

LB: New player
CD: Agger
CD: Carragher
RB: Finnan

LM: Kewell
CM: Maschereno
CM: Gerrard/Alonso
RM: Pennant/Gerrard

FW: New player
FW: Klose

Bench:

Padelli
Hyppia
Riise
Sissoko
Alonso
Garcia
Crouch

Squad Players:

Martin
Aurelio
Arbeloa
Insua
Paletta
Hobbs
Gonzalez
Spearing
Guthrie
Zenden
Anderson
Voronin
Al-Zhar
etc.

Looks like a pretty strong lineup.

[quentinc]

Are we really ready to anoint Mascherano as the starting CM next to Gerrard just yet? I think we need to understand that we're first seeing Mascherano perform right when Xabi is going through a bad form period (arguably his worst since he's arrived at the club). I think Mascherano should see alot of time, but I don't buy the argument that he's already better as a whole than Alonso.

[Morph]

I certainly haven’t made a comparison between Alonso and Mascherano, both offer different techniques and qualities to our side and we certainly are fortunate to have such options.

My ideal formation would be this next season

_____________________Reina___________________

__Finnan/Arbeloa_Carragher__Agger/Hyypia_Aurelio/Riise

________Mascherano_______Sissoko/Alonso_______

_Gerrard/Pennant___Alonso/Sissoko____Kewell/Gerrard

____________Crouch/Kuyt/Striker X______________


A 4-2-3-1 formation is the formation I’d go for next season, we certainly have the players for this formation, it allows Alonso more freedom to be creative and allows Mascherano to break down the opposition engine room and allows Sissoko to feature and cause havoc. Not to mention we will still have wingers which will strengthen our attack, Gerrard could play anywhere and still have the license and luxury to drift in from right or left midfield, because Mascherano and Sissoko will offer protection and the lone striker in theory is lone, but you are forgetting there is three players behind him who will all offer support.

To me if this formation is used correctly, it’s effective and efficient and this to me is a formation which gets the best out of our players. The defence is protected by Mascherano, the main three central/wing players are protected by an energetic Sissoko and the ‘one’ striker is supported by the three midfielders behind him. That said someone like Crouch could always drop deep and allow Gerrard or even Alonso to advance forward. My striker X ideally would be someone like Eto’o, someone who will do the business up the top end and leave everything else to the players behind him.

Maybe I am talking about of my backside, but this is a formation I would love to see us use next season. What are your thoughts on this?

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

I certainly haven’t made a comparison between Alonso and Mascherano, both offer different techniques and qualities to our side and we certainly are fortunate to have such options.

My ideal formation would be this next season

_____________________Reina___________________

__Finnan/Arbeloa_Carragher__Agger/Hyypia_Aurelio/Riise

________Mascherano_______Sissoko/Alonso_______

_Gerrard/Pennant___Alonso/Sissoko____Kewell/Gerrard

____________Crouch/Kuyt/Striker X______________


A 4-2-3-1 formation is the formation I’d go for next season, we certainly have the players for this formation, it allows Alonso more freedom to be creative and allows Mascherano to break down the opposition engine room and allows Sissoko to feature and cause havoc. Not to mention we will still have wingers which will strengthen our attack, Gerrard could play anywhere and still have the license and luxury to drift in from right or left midfield, because Mascherano and Sissoko will offer protection and the lone striker in theory is lone, but you are forgetting there is three players behind him who will all offer support.

To me if this formation is used correctly, it’s effective and efficient and this to me is a formation which gets the best out of our players. The defence is protected by Mascherano, the main three central/wing players are protected by an energetic Sissoko and the ‘one’ striker is supported by the three midfielders behind him. That said someone like Crouch could always drop deep and allow Gerrard or even Alonso to advance forward. My striker X ideally would be someone like Eto’o, someone who will do the business up the top end and leave everything else to the players behind him.

Maybe I am talking about of my backside, but this is a formation I would love to see us use next season. What are your thoughts on this?

I think that may be one of the formations that Rafa uses next season, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a 4-4-2 either. I agree that in the 4-2-3-1 formation that the Striker X would have to be prolific.

Next season we need to start getting more goals from all positions. Our top goalscorers according to liverpoolfc.tv are:

Crouch 18
Kuyt 13
Gerrard 11
Bellamy 9
Fowler 7
Luis Garcia 6
Riise 5

Notice that besides Gerrard there are NO other midfielders in the top 7. Agger (4 goals) and Riise have outscored Gonzalez, Pennant, Alonso, and Sissoko. What is even more disappointing is that Carra, Arbeloa, and now Paletta have the same number of goals as Pennant.

Granted some of the above players have been injured or have not been recieving equal playing time. However, Pennant is an exception to that. He has appeared 50 times for the club and has scored 1 goal. As a winger, that is kind of ridiculous. Sure, I am not expecting a season comparable to Ronaldo, but I don't think I would be stretching by thinking that Pennant should have scored 5-7 goals this season. He leads the team with most appearances.

[quentinc]

I certainly haven’t made a comparison between Alonso and Mascherano, both offer different techniques and qualities to our side and we certainly are fortunate to have such options.

My ideal formation would be this next season

_____________________Reina___________________

__Finnan/Arbeloa_Carragher__Agger/Hyypia_Aurelio/Riise

________Mascherano_______Sissoko/Alonso_______

_Gerrard/Pennant___Alonso/Sissoko____Kewell/Gerrard

____________Crouch/Kuyt/Striker X______________


A 4-2-3-1 formation is the formation I’d go for next season, we certainly have the players for this formation, it allows Alonso more freedom to be creative and allows Mascherano to break down the opposition engine room and allows Sissoko to feature and cause havoc. Not to mention we will still have wingers which will strengthen our attack, Gerrard could play anywhere and still have the license and luxury to drift in from right or left midfield, because Mascherano and Sissoko will offer protection and the lone striker in theory is lone, but you are forgetting there is three players behind him who will all offer support.

To me if this formation is used correctly, it’s effective and efficient and this to me is a formation which gets the best out of our players. The defence is protected by Mascherano, the main three central/wing players are protected by an energetic Sissoko and the ‘one’ striker is supported by the three midfielders behind him. That said someone like Crouch could always drop deep and allow Gerrard or even Alonso to advance forward. My striker X ideally would be someone like Eto’o, someone who will do the business up the top end and leave everything else to the players behind him.

Maybe I am talking about of my backside, but this is a formation I would love to see us use next season. What are your thoughts on this?
The only thing I dislike about this is that it suffers from a lack of creativity going forward. This is especially true if you were to have Mascherano and Alonso playing deep and Sissoko forward; having our most offensively inept midfielder in such a centralized location doesn't comfort me. It would be better to put Garcia in that spot.

Also, Crouch is the only forward that I think does well playing up front alone. Kuyt is more of a support striker (who could actually do well in the central attacking mid role available in this formation).

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

The only thing I dislike about this is that it suffers from a lack of creativity going forward. This is especially true if you were to have Mascherano and Alonso playing deep and Sissoko forward; having our most offensively inept midfielder in such a centralized location doesn't comfort me. It would be better to put Garcia in that spot.

Also, Crouch is the only forward that I think does well playing up front alone. Kuyt is more of a support striker (who could actually do well in the central attacking mid role available in this formation).

That's why I could see Rafa going with the 4-4-2. Especially against teams out of the top 6, so we can get a result from them.

[Liverpool_SC]

The only thing I dislike about this is that it suffers from a lack of creativity going forward. This is especially true if you were to have Mascherano and Alonso playing deep and Sissoko forward; having our most offensively inept midfielder in such a centralized location doesn't comfort me. It would be better to put Garcia in that spot.

Also, Crouch is the only forward that I think does well playing up front alone. Kuyt is more of a support striker (who could actually do well in the central attacking mid role available in this formation).

I agree Crouch can work with this kind of formation, but I don't think it suits our roster on the whole. Too many cooks in the kitchen interfering with each other unless you have a Kaka-type guy. Also ... Kuyt simply doesn't have the passing nous (or has not displayed it yet) to excel here.

I think it should be an option in games against bunkering teams on the road. In those games, Rafa tried the 433 and it ended up with too many people flooding the box. But with the 4231, you are able to better draw defenses away from the goal and defenders struggle with ball watching because it is rarely clear who they should mark.

I think Luis Garcia, Crouch and Kewell would be crucial type players if we ran this look. But I still think we are going to base our formations around the familiar 442/4411 that we see most of the time.

[el-capitano]

I dont mind the one up front system if the wingers can score freely. Kewell can do this, Garcia can do this..... but Pennant..... hmmm...... the jury's still out on him.

Hopefully Rafa with a full off season can work on him to get into better goal scoring positions, but at the moment all he is a someone really wide to cross the ball in, and thats it.

I think we will more than likely see 4-4-2 more often than 4-2-3-1, due to the fact that none of our strikers (bar hopefully the new signing) would be good enough for the lone position.

[Morph]

I think that may be one of the formations that Rafa uses next season, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a 4-4-2 either. I agree that in the 4-2-3-1 formation that the Striker X would have to be prolific.

Next season we need to start getting more goals from all positions. Our top goalscorers according to liverpoolfc.tv are:

Crouch 18
Kuyt 13
Gerrard 11
Bellamy 9
Fowler 7
Luis Garcia 6
Riise 5

Notice that besides Gerrard there are NO other midfielders in the top 7. Agger (4 goals) and Riise have outscored Gonzalez, Pennant, Alonso, and Sissoko. What is even more disappointing is that Carra, Arbeloa, and now Paletta have the same number of goals as Pennant.

Granted some of the above players have been injured or have not been recieving equal playing time. However, Pennant is an exception to that. He has appeared 50 times for the club and has scored 1 goal. As a winger, that is kind of ridiculous. Sure, I am not expecting a season comparable to Ronaldo, but I don't think I would be stretching by thinking that Pennant should have scored 5-7 goals this season. He leads the team with most appearances.

I was thinking last night after I had read the remaining comments on my suggestion, which it’s highly unlikely to happen. Benitez seems to like the idea of a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 (4-4-1-1). I don’t think we have the correct personnel in certain areas to make the 4-2-3-1 formation an effective and lethal formation. As you say Striker X whoever he maybe will have to be someone like Michael Owen, who will do the business up front. We do need more goals from other positions but we need Crouch, Kuyt and Striker X to score around twenty goals each. United have scored 83 goals in the League this season, that’s a hell of a lot of goals to score and it highlights the fact we need our forwards to be more prolific. We have three main sources of goals at Liverpool, Crouch, Gerrard and Kuyt would seem to be the main three, Garcia is another source of goals, but he’s been out injured for most of the season, Gerrard hasn’t been firing on all cylinders so we’ve lost valuable points from our most valuable sources of goals. This is why Rafa needs to sign a striker who offers a balance between a good work ethic and an out-and-out goal scorer.

In the midfield’s defence, although it’s their job to manage the balance between defence and attack, I do feel that too much is expected of our midfielders in terms of scoring goals. It’s one of their roles to score goals, I won’t deny that, but we rely too much on other players to score us goals instead of the strikers, whose job is to put the ball in the back of the net. We rely too much on Gerrard to score the goals we need and whilst he’s a fantastic player, he is not a goal machine. If Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy and Fowler in (particular) took the chances presented to them, they’d all have more goals than what they have now and we would have had a better season on the whole. I expect the midfield to score goals, but their role is to provide the strikers with opportunities to score. I don’t expect twenty goals a season from Gerrard or Alonso, whilst I’d love everyone on the team to score goals, the strikers need to take the chances and score a large proportion of the goals, with assistance from players like Agger.

I didn’t expect goals from Mascherano because he tends to sit deep and play in front of the back four, if he can score a handful of goals a season, this would be an added bonus. Alonso again doesn’t have that freedom as he has been our main defensive midfielder, so I didn’t expect him to score goals. Sissoko cannot hit a cow’s arse with a banjo, so I wasn’t expecting him to get on the score sheet, again if he scores one or two throughout the season, then it’s a bonus. Liverpool have little problem in creating chances, but taking these chances is a must and we have been incredibly wasteful this season and the buck has to stop with the strikers. I think it’s unfair to target the midfield for a lack of goals. As for Pennant, he’s not an out and out goal scoring sensation from midfield, what you get is what you see, he’s a team player and would rather pass the ball to someone else than take a shot, if Rafa wants more goals out of him, then he has to get Pennant to be a bit more selfish in front of goal.

If the strikers do the business in front of goal then there won’t need to be an over reliance on the midfield to provide and produce goals. Of course I expect every player to chip in with goals, but asking players like Gerrard to score twenty goals a season and run midfield is asking far too much of any player. On the whole I expect more goals from the team, we score far too few goals and we are probably one of the most wasteful teams when it comes to chances, this needs be rectified.

The only thing I dislike about this is that it suffers from a lack of creativity going forward. This is especially true if you were to have Mascherano and Alonso playing deep and Sissoko forward; having our most offensively inept midfielder in such a centralized location doesn't comfort me. It would be better to put Garcia in that spot.

Also, Crouch is the only forward that I think does well playing up front alone. Kuyt is more of a support striker (who could actually do well in the central attacking mid role available in this formation).


I don’t think it lacks creativity, I think if you play the right players in the right positions it can create more than enough chances. Benitez used a formation similar to this at Valencia and it was more than prosperous. A midfield trio of Kewell, Alonso and Gerrard or Garcia, Alonso, Gerrard would be more than creative enough to score create and score goals. The main problem with the formation is, is it too restrictive and static? Sissoko is not a static player; he covers an enormous amount of ground and is essentially a box to box ball winning player. Whilst the formation looks rigid on paper, I am sure the team could find a way to accommodate one another and seeing as we work and Harry together successfully, I don’t think it’s an immediate problem.


As for the players I chose in the position, I didn’t spend time thinking about where the players should play; I just highlighted the possibilities of where players could well be placed in the formation. If you look at our current crop of players, then Bellamy and Crouch look the best players for the lone striker role, but I don’t think the lone position would be much of problem, because the midfield trio would more often help the lone striker, of course Pennant, Kewell, Garcia, Gerrard, Gonzales can all drift inwards to make the midfield trio of that formation much more compact as well as playing along the flanks. You are probably right about Kuyt but from what I saw of Feyenoord, Kuyt was their main striker and Kalou was the support striker. So I think Kuyt could well be comfortable playing as a support striker or the ‘lone’ striker.


____________________________Reina____________________________

______Finnan________Carragher_______Agger_______Riise___________

______________Mascherano__________Sissoko____________________

____________Gerrard_________Garcia__________Kewell_____________


_________________________ Striker X_____________________________

Or

___________________________Reina___________________________

_____Finnan_________Carragher_____Agger__________Riise________

_______________Mascherano_________Alonso____________________

_________Pennant__________Gerrard___________Gonzales________

__________________________Crouch___________________________

There are many more formations, to pick and choose from, I won’t bother doing them all, but I really do like this formation and call me stupid or naïve, I do think you can create a Championship winning side with this formation, it offers a great sense of balance between defence and attack.