Who is the next Maradona?

[comme]

. He proves no actual fact or theory to suggest the SP was as good as Europe defensively which suggests it would be easier to score over there hence the 1.5 goal a game average.

Its a simple question how many top defenders and goal keepers were playing in South America at the time? How many are playing there now? How many are bought from abroad? How many were playing in Europe? How many playing in the top teams now are European?

All answers to the questions above need to be answered to big up Peles label and tpmazembe doesnt do that.

Do you not see that you are falling into his second point? Applying Current Paradigms to the Past?

You argue that because the best defenders in Europe are European today that they were then. What evidence do you have to support that?

The two best full-back in the world (certainly at the time, possibly ever) Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos were playing there. Gilmar (voted as the 11th best keeper ever by the IFFHS) was playing there. He was comfortably better than any goalkeeper in Italy or Spain at the time.

If I start to fire out more names, you are simply going to argue that because they weren't playing in Europe either that they were no good.

[roykeanes_safc]

I'm fully aware of the esteem that Clough is held in. Very few though would hail him as the outright greatest manager ever though, despite twice taking small East Midlands teams from nothing to greatness.



Nobody wanted to win the inter-continental cup? The apathy towards the CWC only came after the 1968 and 1969 competitions. In 1962 and 1963 Milan and Benfica wanted to win, no Benfica or Milan player would deny that. Whether Best wanted to win or not (5 years later) is an irrelevance as he was not playing.

The way you try and rubbish Pele's achievements is just ridiculous. Perhaps nobody wanted to win the 1958 or 1970 World Cups either?



So winning once means nothing, but winning twice means you are the best player ever? Verona's victory shows that what Maradona did at Napoli, while incredible was not exceptional. Other small teams could and did challenge the established order.



What was the impact of Pele's departure on Santos?

Very few people would class him as the greatest ever probablys due to he wasnt an angel, a crime he didnt get the Sunderland and England jobs back then.

The inter-continental cup was corrupt, its in many ex players autobiographys and i very much doubt its sour grapes.

one win is easier than two, a lot easier. You win it once when nobody expects you to, the big clubs are the contenders when the lesser teams try harder. Napoli were a marked club when they won it again, they had already been champions and had the great Maradona, they still won it.

[Twix]

Roykeanesafc. Where exactly do you rank Pele?

[roykeanes_safc]

Lol. This post was a nonsense, seriously.

WC 1958 : dream team

Keeper : Yashin
Defenders : Nilton Santos, Bellini, Djalma Santos

In 1962 :

keeper : Carbajal
Defenders : Djalma Santos, Cesare Maldini, Voronin, Schnellinger

In 1966 :

Keeper : Banks

Defenders : Cohen, Moore, Voronin, Marzolini

In 1970 :

Keeper : Mazurkiewicz

Defenders : Carlos Alberto, Piazza, Beckenbauer, Fachetti

Out of 19 picks, brazilian defenders were selected 6 times, Italy only twice, England thrice, Germany twice.

In fact, between 1958 and 1994, if we make a comparison with the most reputed defense fron Europe, the italian one, we will see that Italy managed to play at least 5 games in 1970, 1978, 1982, 1990 and 1994.
In those tournaments, they conceded 8 goals, 6 goals, 6 goals, 2 goals and respectively 5 goals. So practically only ONCE did the italian defense allowed less than 5 goals against them.
Brazil at the same time managed to play at least 5 games in 1958, 1962, 1970, 1974, 1978, 1982, 1986, 1994.
The number of goals conceded were 4 goals, 5 goals, 7 goals, 4 goals, 3 goals, 5 goals, 1 goal, 3 goals.
The overall record of the italian defense : 34 games, 27 goals conceded. Goal Ratio : 0.79
Brazil's overall record : 49 games, 32 goals. Goal Ratio : 0.65

Brazil has some things to boast of even in defense, not just in the offense.
The problem was that, on severall occasions, the brazilian offensive displays were so stellar that it overshadowed everything else...

Oh the World Cup 11 always an accurate indicator to the worlds best 11 players:rolleyes:. Perfect example Gordon Banks was still the best goalkeeper in the World in 1970 and he isnt in the team.

Stats prove nothing you must be American or Brazilian. Nyron nosworthy has the highest succesful tackle percentage in the premier league, is he the best defender in England?

The best form of defense is to attack, ive never disputed the attacking talent of Brazil but if your dominating a game in the midfield your defense wont be tested. The low stats dont show Brazilian defenders were World class just werent tested.

The South americans mainly listed ae full backs, coincidence?

How often do you see South American sides score from prolonged peroids of pressure against European defenses - Often

How often do you see European teams score from poor defensive work by South american teams? Often

England v Brazil WC 2002 England score from barely one attack to take the lead

Brazil despite the majortiy of possesion and better atacking play score 2

[comme]

Very few people would class him as the greatest ever probablys due to he wasnt an angel, a crime he didnt get the Sunderland and England jobs back then.

It's more due to the fact that his success wasn't sustained. After the second EC Fores regressed and were never a major threat in the 80s.

The inter-continental cup was corrupt, its in many ex players autobiographys and i very much doubt its sour grapes.

What proof of that is there? Unlike Serie A and the EC of which there has been proven corruption, what proof is there of corruption in the ICC?

In 1962 Santos went to Portugal and beat Benfica 5-2. Pele scored a hat-trick. Are you complaining that the reason was corruption?

one win is easier than two, a lot easier. You win it once when nobody expects you to, the big clubs are the contenders when the lesser teams try harder. Napoli were a marked club when they won it again, they had already been champions and had the great Maradona, they still won it.

When they won it the second time they had Careca, Alemao, Ciro Ferrara. They were not nobodies.

Plus if you want to talk about corruption what about the awarding of a game to Napoli when Alemao was struck with a coin. Without that they wouldn't have won their second title.

[roykeanes_safc]

It's more due to the fact that his success wasn't sustained. After the second EC Fores regressed and were never a major threat in the 80s.



What proof of that is there? Unlike Serie A and the EC of which there has been proven corruption, what proof is there of corruption in the ICC?

In 1962 Santos went to Portugal and beat Benfica 5-2. Pele scored a hat-trick. Are you complaining that the reason was corruption?



When they won it the second time they had Careca, Alemao, Ciro Ferrara. They were not nobodies.

Plus if you want to talk about corruption what about the awarding of a game to Napoli when Alemao was struck with a coin. Without that they wouldn't have won their second title.

Well done pele, not patronising btw

Im not disputing he was a great player im disputing he is number 2 rather than number 1.

The intercontinental cup has a past of terrible refereeing in the South American countries. European teams were penalised for tackles that won the ball while they got nothing when the South American teams nearly ended their careers. It was very easy to get away with back then, the only evidence i have is the reports of matches in player autobiographies and i doubt all the players are displaying a case of sour grapes, something must have went on.

When they won it the second time they did have better players but they wouldnt have been there if it wasnt for what Diego had already achieved.

I dont really see how you can dispute the game being awarded to Napoli for the coin incident. If FIFA grew a pair of balls maybe Italy, Spain and Eastern Europe would be punished rather than trying to throw England out of competitions for much more minor incidents.

[argentine soccer fan]

Oh the World Cup 11 always an accurate indicator to the worlds best 11 players:rolleyes:. Perfect example Gordon Banks was still the best goalkeeper in the World in 1970 and he isnt in the team.

What is your point? Are you saying that the WC all-stars were not great players?

Nobody is arguing that Banks wasn't an all-time great goalkeeper, but you seem to be ignorant of South American talent. Mazurkiewicz was also an all-time great keeper and just as worthy of being an all-star. Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos are arguably the best ever at their positions, and Marzolini was up there as well. There were some great defenders in South America in the 50's and 60's, whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not.

[96wirdMeister]

Nobody of them, not CR, not Krkic, not dos Santos, not Kroos :eek:;) It´s...Jean Carlos Chera or simply "Anderson"!

This young guy will be the next Pelé, or better? I dont´know:eek: In the vid he´s 5-9 years old, today he´s 13 years old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCh_R_DM9wU

[Twix]

Nobody of them, not CR, not Krkic, not dos Santos, not Kroos :eek:;) It´s...Jean Carlos Chera or simply "Anderson"!

This young guy will be the next Pelé, or better? I dont´know:eek: In the vid he´s 5-9 years old, today he´s 13 years old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCh_R_DM9wU
FYI, that video is around 3 years old, and there's been quite a few threads about him. If you're really fascinated by the guy, I suggest you go to the Brazil boards and do a simple search for "Jean Carlos Chera" for more information.

It's still a nice vid, by the way.

[David Hankey]

Next Maradonna? Look through your basketball teams!!:D

[JumpinJackFlash]

Ariel Ortega > Pele.

yes, I'm that bored haha.

[erick]

the next maradona is messi. they both play alike and they are both not very tall www.youtube.com/watch?v=ishInxc7HqE