Who is the next Maradona?

[bosterosoy]

Because the lower quality of the Eastern region would bring Germanys (East and West) average stats down and they wouldnt look quite as impressive.

his argument was that both regions were as good as each other not there was one strong region and a weaker one.

I could use the statisitcs of the top 4 to paint a picture English clubs are dominant in Europe, however the rest of the league and Uefa cup results would tell a different story. The premier league doesnt dont represent the whole of England just like the Bundesliga doesnt represent the whole of Germany and the Sao Paulo region doesnt represent the whole of Brazil.

But the leagues were separate thus if the Eastern league was not as good as the Bundesliga, they had nothing to do with each other because they were separate leagues. Just like the Sao Paolo state league tournament is separate from the other regional tournaments. If we are talking about a Bayer Munich being good or not it doesn't matter how good Eastern German teams were because they played in the Bundesliga (western region league)

[comme]

you obviosly know very little of Serie A at the time or you wouldnt have made such an ill informed comment.

This was at the time where Serie A was the place to be, English clubs were barred from Europe, La liga wasnt so good and Serie A had the cream of the worlds elite players.

Serie A was the dominant league by far back then and for a small club like Napoli to win the scudetto at a time where it was the best league on the planet was sensational.

This is just plainly not true. As pointed out Verona went from nobodies to champions in a matter of years. Milan went from being relegated to being champions in a short time frame.

Would you agree that England was the dominant league in the 70s? If so how did Clough take Forest from Division 2 to European Champions?

[JumpinJackFlash]

Tribute's favourite album.
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3407/929101de4.jpg

http://www.musicanapoletana.com/product.php?productid=19055&cat=1256&page=1

Sorry I couldn't restrain myself.

[roykeanes_safc]

But the leagues were separate thus if the Eastern league was not as good as the Bundesliga, they had nothing to do with each other because they were separate leagues. Just like the Sao Paolo state league tournament is separate from the other regional tournaments. If we are talking about a Bayer Munich being good or not it doesn't matter how good Eastern German teams were because they played in the Bundesliga (western region league)

See now your changing your argument, it was never argued team A were a good team because they play in a regional league. The orginal argument was both regional leagues were as good as the European leagues which is false.

[roykeanes_safc]

This is just plainly not true. As pointed out Verona went from nobodies to champions in a matter of years. Milan went from being relegated to being champions in a short time frame.

Would you agree that England was the dominant league in the 70s? If so how did Clough take Forest from Division 2 to European Champions?

As he was a great manager, if you look at Cloughs teams they were succesful through him not the star players. Nobody says Forest were dominant because of Martin O Neil. How many World class players were playing in England at the time? not as many as Serie A in the 80s. As for Verona, any team can strike lucky - Blackburn won the premiership. Napoli won it more than once and a continental trophy. Without Maradona they would have won nothing like Forest would have won nothing without Clough, looked at what happened when he moved to Sevilla.

[Twix]

See now your changing your argument, it was never argued team A were a good team because they play in a regional league. The orginal argument was both regional leagues were as good as the European leagues which is false.

ROYKEANES_SAFC and JumpinJackFlash

Please read posts #103 to #111 in the following thread and reply to the points may by tpmazembe in there as I feel they're relevant to the current discussion. I'm curious as to what your responses would be.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129040&pp=15&highlight=heynckes&page=7

Cheers.

[JumpinJackFlash]

Seems tpmazembe is trying really hard to make excuses for the Brazilian league, rather than living in the realm of reality and what is fact.

I feel the first post shows a poor grasp of Italian football... not very long ago there were the Seven Sisters of Serie A... named so because any one of seven clubs were capable of winning the league with their high quality players. So the "Italian teams below the Big Four only show up to round out the league" is a lie. Even last years Champions League winners are only 5th in Serie A at the moment.

The Italian league has far more big clubs than just "four". We're talking about a league where the likes or Lazio, Napoli and Parma are in the bottom half, clubs who could easily beat the sides at the top of the Brazilian league any day of the week.

I can't comment on the other post, because I do not follow North American sports in the slightest... all I know about OJ Simpson is that he killed his wife and got away with it??

[Twix]

Seems tpmazembe is trying really hard to make excuses for the Brazilian league, rather than living in the realm of reality and what is fact.

lol, I doubt that as tpmazembe backs everything he says with facts and statistics and even references every single one of his sources. Could you please point out which one of his points feel like excuses to you?

I feel the first post shows a poor grasp of Italian football... not very long ago there were the Seven Sisters of Serie A... named so because any one of seven clubs were capable of winning the league with their high quality players. So the "Italian teams below the Big Four only show up to round out the league" is a lie. Even last years Champions League winners are only 5th in Serie A at the moment.

The Italian league has far more big clubs than just "four". We're talking about a league where the likes or Lazio, Napoli and Parma are in the bottom half, clubs who could easily beat the sides at the top of the Brazilian league any day of the week.

I can't comment on the other post, because I do not follow North American sports in the slightest... all I know about OJ Simpson is that he killed his wife and got away with it??


JJF, I feel you misread the post. Read it again, he's making a point about how people make ignorant comments about leagues based on little reasoning. Pay particular attention to the part in bold.

Have they yet come to a consensus on which league today is best?

How often have you read on the boards comments about the Premiership not being quality because only two teams seem in position to win it each year…or that its top scorer couldn’t make it in Serie A....or La Liga can’t be that difficult because most of the top goal scorers don’t have international scoring pedigree….or the Italian teams below the Big Four only show up to round out the league…or that the games are fixed in favor of Juve…or fixed in general….etc…etc….etc. [These are not my arguments, just stuff I’ve seen posted on the numerous threads debating today’s best league].

I’ve seen reasonably knowledgeable posters have diametrically opposite views about leagues, players and teams. If no consensus can be reached on Leagues everyone here gets to see on weekly basis, how are conclusions being made about leagues most never saw, nor have a modicum of knowledge about?


On the next page, there are more posts made by him in case you missed it. So would you mind giving tpmazembe another chance?

[bosterosoy]

The Italian league has far more big clubs than just "four". We're talking about a league where the likes or Lazio, Napoli and Parma are in the bottom half, clubs who could easily beat the sides at the top of the Brazilian league any day of the week.

Lol teams like Boca Juniors, River Plate, Sao paolo, Santos, Cruziero and other top Brasilian/South American teams etc would destroy Parma, Lazio and Napoli, Udinese etc especially how they are playing now. And that is considering that some of those teams aren't as good as they were back in the 60s when Pele was there because not so many top players were sold routinely

[comme]

As he was a great manager, if you look at Cloughs teams they were succesful through him not the star players. Nobody says Forest were dominant because of Martin O Neil. How many World class players were playing in England at the time? not as many as Serie A in the 80s. As for Verona, any team can strike lucky - Blackburn won the premiership. Napoli won it more than once and a continental trophy. Without Maradona they would have won nothing like Forest would have won nothing without Clough, looked at what happened when he moved to Sevilla.

So then Clough must be the best manager ever? If Maradona gets credited as the best player ever on the back of taking Napoli to the title, Clough must be off the scale in what he achieved with Forest.

Of course the fact that Pele took Santos, a small club in Brazilian terms, to be double World Champions can be easily brushed beneath the carpet?

Verona's victory is dismissed as striking lucky, yet Maradona's is the greatest ever achievement?

Also what is your point about Sevilla? Maradona did not set the world on fire there.

[JumpinJackFlash]

Lol teams like Boca Juniors, River Plate, Sao paolo, Santos, Cruziero and other top Brasilian/South American teams etc would destroy Parma, Lazio and Napoli, Udinese etc especially how they are playing now. And that is considering that some of those teams aren't as good as they were back in the 60s when Pele was there because not so many top players were sold routinely

The first two are Argentine, not Brazilian. And Napoli, who are currently 12th in Serie A have Lavezzi who already played a huge part in San Lorenzo winning the Primera Clausura last year. Who does Cruzeiro have? That seal kid who's going to Man United soon?

[bosterosoy]

The first two are Argentine, not Brazilian. And Napoli, who are currently 12th in Serie A have Lavezzi who already played a huge part in San Lorenzo winning the Primera Clausura last year. Who does Cruzeiro have? That seal kid who's going to Man United soon?

First off, Parma would be fighting relegation in Brasil or Argentina just like they are in Italy. Napoli would be mid table just like they are in Serie A. As for Lazio, they would most likely be mid table in Brasil or Argentina. I agree that Maradona was better than Pele, but the reasons you are throwing out are a joke about how the Brsailian league at the time was a joke, the joke is actually the statements made by roykeanes_safc

Also, San Lorenzo won and good for them, but it was mainly because Boca was focused on the Copa Libertadores.

[Kulspruta]

Who does Cruzeiro have? That seal kid who's going to Man United soon?
You wouldn't know, but so far Cruzeiro has been the most impressive south american team this season. The team won the 2 preliminary Libertadores games against the traditional Cerro Porteño, 3x0 at home and 3x2 away, then won against Caracas and Real Potosi at home, both by 3x0, and got a 0x0 draw against San Lorenzo in Argentina. The team is leading it's group in the Libertadores. The brazilian league has yet to start, so the brazilian teams are still playing the regional tournaments, and Cruzeiro is 2 points behind the leader in the "Mineiro", having played one game less. The team record in the tournament is 5 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss, the draw was played against the team's main rival, and the loss was played with a reserve team. Cruzeiro was the last brazilian team to lose a game this season, meaning all others, in all of the regional competitions, have already lost at least once.

Kerlon is injured, and he really is a good prospect, although you may think the only thing he does is the seal dribble, which is not. But even so, he has never been one of the most important players in the squad. Anyway, you wouldn't know Wagner, Ramires, Guilherme and Moreno even if I told you about them, so it does no good.

[roykeanes_safc]

ROYKEANES_SAFC and JumpinJackFlash

Please read posts #103 to #111 in the following thread and reply to the points may by tpmazembe in there as I feel they're relevant to the current discussion. I'm curious as to what your responses would be.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129040&pp=15&highlight=heynckes&page=7

Cheers.

Provdes no real evidence.

He brings the 1.5 goal a game statistic into the argument, I agree impressive but where is the evidence to show the SP is as strong as Europe. Previous in this thread someone gave me stats for the league but you cant compare one regional league to a national league. It would be like comparing the stats of top half of the coca cola championship and saying it was a better league than the premiership as it had better stats in goals conceded when talking about defenses, however this wouldnt be true. All it proves is the stats depend on the quality of the rest of the league it doesnt act as a comparison tool for two different leagues, get it. The 58 world cup argument is irrelevant as well, Oleg Salenko was the WC top goal scorer and Baros was the Euros top goalscorer hardly world class strikers are they.

Simple fact in any world 11 how many South American gks and defenders would be included? How many are the key aspects of their defense.

The premier league imo strongest in the world right now
Top 4

Chelsea - Belleti - hardly key though is he
Arsenal - None
Man U - None
Liverpool - None (Aurellio is a squad player)

across Europe those who are key are probably

Lucio - Bayern
Marquez - Barca

the majority are attacking full backs who are in their to atack not defend, a excellent example is Alves at Sevilla he cant defend to save his life which probably explains why Chelseas interest dropped


Europeans who cant get in their national teams are normally better than the starting players for South American teams. Vice versa with attacking players.

[roykeanes_safc]

So then Clough must be the best manager ever? If Maradona gets credited as the best player ever on the back of taking Napoli to the title, Clough must be off the scale in what he achieved with Forest.

Of course the fact that Pele took Santos, a small club in Brazilian terms, to be double World Champions can be easily brushed beneath the carpet?

Verona's victory is dismissed as striking lucky, yet Maradona's is the greatest ever achievement?

Also what is your point about Sevilla? Maradona did not set the world on fire there.

Its funny how you dont know the high regard people in the game have for Brian Clough. He is one of the greatest managers of all time. However his manor probablys held in back at times but if he lost that he probably would have lost the magic that he had.

Pele won a cup 2 seasons in a row nobody in Europe gave a flying ******** about. In George Bests autobiography it was also a known fact that the south american officials were corrupt, hardly the achievment that it would be today.

Verona winning Serie A once compares to Napolis success, right:rolleyes:

Napoli crumbled when Maradona left i wasnt refering to Sevilla, where he was hampered by personal problems and injurys.

[roykeanes_safc]

First off, Parma would be fighting relegation in Brasil or Argentina just like they are in Italy. Napoli would be mid table just like they are in Serie A. As for Lazio, they would most likely be mid table in Brasil or Argentina. I agree that Maradona was better than Pele, but the reasons you are throwing out are a joke about how the Brsailian league at the time was a joke, the joke is actually the statements made by roykeanes_safc

Also, San Lorenzo won and good for them, but it was mainly because Boca was focused on the Copa Libertadores.

How many of the players in goal and defense in the 58,62,66,70 World Cups would have got in a World 11 at the time?

These were the best the region had to offer as well so what was the standard of the backup players? in defensive terms not attacking the SP is a joke of a league.

[comme]

Your response seems to be a synthesis of all the "points" that tpmazembe's notional Pele-basher would come up with. I really can't believe that these same arguments will just go on and on forever.

[roykeanes_safc]

Your response seems to be a synthesis of all the "points" that tpmazembe's notional Pele-basher would come up with. I really can't believe that these same arguments will just go on and on forever.

. He proves no actual fact or theory to suggest the SP was as good as Europe defensively which suggests it would be easier to score over there hence the 1.5 goal a game average.

Its a simple question how many top defenders and goal keepers were playing in South America at the time? How many are playing there now? How many are bought from abroad? How many were playing in Europe? How many playing in the top teams now are European?

All answers to the questions above need to be answered to big up Peles label and tpmazembe doesnt do that.

[comme]

Its funny how you dont know the high regard people in the game have for Brian Clough. He is one of the greatest managers of all time. However his manor probablys held in back at times but if he lost that he probably would have lost the magic that he had.

I'm fully aware of the esteem that Clough is held in. Very few though would hail him as the outright greatest manager ever though, despite twice taking small East Midlands teams from nothing to greatness.

Pele won a cup 2 seasons in a row nobody in Europe gave a flying ******** about. In George Bests autobiography it was also a known fact that the south american officials were corrupt, hardly the achievment that it would be today.

Nobody wanted to win the inter-continental cup? The apathy towards the CWC only came after the 1968 and 1969 competitions. In 1962 and 1963 Milan and Benfica wanted to win, no Benfica or Milan player would deny that. Whether Best wanted to win or not (5 years later) is an irrelevance as he was not playing.

The way you try and rubbish Pele's achievements is just ridiculous. Perhaps nobody wanted to win the 1958 or 1970 World Cups either?

Verona winning Serie A once compares to Napolis success, right:rolleyes:

So winning once means nothing, but winning twice means you are the best player ever? Verona's victory shows that what Maradona did at Napoli, while incredible was not exceptional. Other small teams could and did challenge the established order.

Napoli crumbled when Maradona left i wasnt refering to Sevilla, where he was hampered by personal problems and injurys.

What was the impact of Pele's departure on Santos?

[Tribune]

How many of the players in goal and defense in the 58,62,66,70 World Cups would have got in a World 11 at the time?

These were the best the region had to offer as well so what was the standard of the backup players? in defensive terms not attacking the SP is a joke of a league.

Lol. This post was a nonsense, seriously.

WC 1958 : dream team

Keeper : Yashin
Defenders : Nilton Santos, Bellini, Djalma Santos

In 1962 :

keeper : Carbajal
Defenders : Djalma Santos, Cesare Maldini, Voronin, Schnellinger

In 1966 :

Keeper : Banks

Defenders : Cohen, Moore, Voronin, Marzolini

In 1970 :

Keeper : Mazurkiewicz

Defenders : Carlos Alberto, Piazza, Beckenbauer, Fachetti

Out of 19 picks, brazilian defenders were selected 6 times, Italy only twice, England thrice, Germany twice.

In fact, between 1958 and 1994, if we make a comparison with the most reputed defense fron Europe, the italian one, we will see that Italy managed to play at least 5 games in 1970, 1978, 1982, 1990 and 1994.
In those tournaments, they conceded 8 goals, 6 goals, 6 goals, 2 goals and respectively 5 goals. So practically only ONCE did the italian defense allowed less than 5 goals against them.
Brazil at the same time managed to play at least 5 games in 1958, 1962, 1970, 1974, 1978, 1982, 1986, 1994.
The number of goals conceded were 4 goals, 5 goals, 7 goals, 4 goals, 3 goals, 5 goals, 1 goal, 3 goals.
The overall record of the italian defense : 34 games, 27 goals conceded. Goal Ratio : 0.79
Brazil's overall record : 49 games, 32 goals. Goal Ratio : 0.65

Brazil has some things to boast of even in defense, not just in the offense.
The problem was that, on severall occasions, the brazilian offensive displays were so stellar that it overshadowed everything else...