USA Supporters

[Frieslander]

One of the main reasons the new group (call it USA Supporters) broke away from Sam's Army is because SA went corporate. It went from being grass roots to being a business. Now SA is making money off of supporters and some of us don't appreciate that. At first people were encouraged to start local "brigades" but over the last couple of years SA got greedy. People who have made t-shirts for their brigade with the SA logo were asked to stop because the logo was a registered trademark. It didn't matter that the brigade wasn't making any money off the shirt.

Wanting to return to grass roots support was biggest reason why USA Supporters started.

[rksehga]

Originally posted by Frieslander
People who have made t-shirts for their brigade with the SA logo were asked to stop because the logo was a registered trademark. It didn't matter that the brigade wasn't making any money off the shirt.


I don't know that much about trademark law, but i know that once a name is used in a generic fashion, it is no longer entitled to trademark protection. It seems that no matter what people who sit together and cheer for the US while wearing red shirts will always be known as Sam's Army. Not that I have a problem with that, as it is a good name. Maybe one day either the douchebag who registered the trademark or a court will let the whole deal go.

Douchebag who registered the trademark, why are you such a douchebag? You are the fat bastard who ate all the pies.

BTW, the chants page on the SA website is horrible.

[OriginalAEK]

Originally posted by Frieslander
One of the main reasons the new group (call it USA Supporters) broke away from Sam's Army is because SA went corporate. It went from being grass roots to being a business. Now SA is making money off of supporters and some of us don't appreciate that. At first people were encouraged to start local "brigades" but over the last couple of years SA got greedy. People who have made t-shirts for their brigade with the SA logo were asked to stop because the logo was a registered trademark. It didn't matter that the brigade wasn't making any money off the shirt.

Wanting to return to grass roots support was biggest reason why USA Supporters started.

Amen!

[AndyMead]

Originally posted by OriginalAEK
Amen!

And yet, totally false.

I ask anyone here to call the Sam's Army hotline and ask Mark Spacone exactly how much money he makes off of this. I can't think of another person that has spent more of their own money making it possible for other people to join together to support the USA than Mark Spacone. I have my own problems and complaints about Sam's Army, but to let the implication of "going corporate" slide would be wrong.

SA doesn't make a dime. The "Sam's Army" logo is a registered trademark. Registering an identity is not the same as making money or going corporate. I have problems with some of Mark's "after the fact" enforcement of his trademark, but he is just trying to protect what he has spent eight relatively thankless years building.

---
USA Supporters - and Sach, please correct me - was not supported because SA was corporate, it was started for its own reasons. Mainly because Mark Spacone had become relatively unresponsive, and Sam's Army ticketing had become uncontrolled, leading to enough people getting into the sections that didn't belong there - because they wanted the seat number on their ticket - because they didn't plan to sing and stand the whole game - because they misunderstood what Sam's Army was all about. The problem wasn't with Sam's Army, but that Sam's Army had stopped enforcing and educating. USA Supporters is a rebirth of what Sam's Army started out as. Which is why, at the end of the day, they're basically the same folks.

The number one problem for both groups is controlling ticket distribution. There's a need to educate the casual fan what it means to be in the "supporters section." Rather than denigrate folks, it's best to encourage them to join - or find a section more suitable to their needs.

---
But don't accuse Sam's Army or Mark Spacone of making one dime of profit, lest you really show just how ignorant you are. Call the Sam's Army hotline and talk to Mark. He is always willing to talk to anyone, even folks (like me) that he often has very serious disagreements with. He has poured countless thousands of dollars into Sam's Army with no hope of any money coming back in.

[Frieslander]

why would they tell a brigade to stop making t-shirts with their logo if they weren't looking to make money? These were local brigade shirts made in a very small quanitity, sold for cost.

Why would Scapone admit if he was making money? He may be losing money, I don't know, but he's lost my trust.

oh, and I know why USA Supporters started because I was there at the beginning.

[tame1999]

Originally posted by Frieslander
why would they tell a brigade to stop making t-shirts with their logo if they weren't looking to make money? These were local brigade shirts made in a very small quanitity, sold for cost.

Why would Scapone admit if he was making money? He may be losing money, I don't know, but he's lost my trust.

oh, and I know why USA Supporters started because I was there at the beginning.


i could care less about who does what with the money or a bunch of trademark law arguments cause in the end it comes down to what u do inside the stadium that matters.

[AndyMead]

Originally posted by Frieslander
why would they tell a brigade to stop making t-shirts with their logo if they weren't looking to make money? These were local brigade shirts made in a very small quanitity, sold for cost.
Why would you stop someone from using your name? He put a stop to it because 1) he says they didn't ask for permission to use the image (I don't know whether that was true or not) and 2) he didn't know if they were making money on it or not. Mark doesn't make money on Sam's Army, and the last thing he wants is someone else doing just that.

Why would Scapone admit if he was making money? He may be losing money, I don't know, but he's lost my trust.
Under what circumstance would you ever begin to think that he makes any money at all on this? Seriously. Exactly where does anyone make any money on this? Selling a hundred T-shirts a year? 10-20 scarves and a bagful of pins? Exactly what does that pay for? Just because Spacone wouldn't let the NJ Brigade use his registered trademark doesn't imply anything about profit. I am very sympathetic to Ed Kirwin and his gang. It is something I think Mark handled wrong, but it doesn't mean Mark is a money-grubbing carpetbagger.

oh, and I know why USA Supporters started because I was there at the beginning.
Then please tell us.

[NikeBlues]

Originally posted by TheMutts
we dont start fights (not that I know of)
just as long as we dont run from em (we, not me)


Ok, tough guy, I'll take your word for it until I see you running and crying from some pissed of Paraguay fan after the game on July 6, but no, its ok, because "USA Supporters doesn't run from fights"....right???

[TheMutts]

Originally posted by NikeBlues
Ok, tough guy, I'll take your word for it until I see you running and crying from some pissed of Paraguay fan after the game on July 6, but no, its ok, because "USA Supporters doesn't run from fights"....right???
geez. fine we run from fights.

and I have nothing against Sams Army. If you ask me they are better than 90% of other US fans. They stand and wear red and go to most games in there area. So dont act like they are all losers.

[NikeBlues]

I dont care who runs from fights, or who doesn't run from fights. Its a soccer match, fights shouldn't be an issue, cheering your team on so they have an advantage should be the issue. I have attended matches with Sams-Army before, and I believe that they do what is in their power to help the USA to victory, and they were surely noticeable at the World Cup doing everything they could even agaisnt the thousands of fans from Korea/Portugal etc.

Sure, if another group wants to form, thats good, I have no problem with that, but nobody should be bashing Sams-Army for the great effort that they put forth to help the team.

[Frieslander]

Originally posted by AndyMead
Why would you stop someone from using your name? He put a stop to it because 1) he says they didn't ask for permission to use the image (I don't know whether that was true or not) and 2) he didn't know if they were making money on it or not. Mark doesn't make money on Sam's Army, and the last thing he wants is someone else doing just that.


If they were so concerned about protecting their name why did they encourage people to start brigades?

Originally posted by AndyMead

Under what circumstance would you ever begin to think that he makes any money at all on this? Seriously. Exactly where does anyone make any money on this? Selling a hundred T-shirts a year? 10-20 scarves and a bagful of pins? Exactly what does that pay for? Just because Spacone wouldn't let the NJ Brigade use his registered trademark doesn't imply anything about profit. I am very sympathetic to Ed Kirwin and his gang. It is something I think Mark handled wrong, but it doesn't mean Mark is a money-grubbing carpetbagger.

I don't care how much money he makes, it's the principle. SA should either be a non-profit group that organizes supporters at matches or it's a business. They should tell us what they wanna be.
I know what the NJB is and it's definately not a business.

Originally posted by AndyMead

Then please tell us.

USA Supporters started for all the reasons you stated plus the issue I stated. When everything first started I was against leaving SA because I thought SA could be "fixed" from within. But the breaking point was the money issue.

USA Supporters is a loose confederation of people who try to organize supporters when a match is in their area. That's it and that's all it will every be. There is no name to trademark and no central leader.

[AndyMead]

Agreed.

[TheMutts]

Originally posted by NikeBlues
I dont care who runs from fights, or who doesn't run from fights. Its a soccer match, fights shouldn't be an issue, cheering your team on so they have an advantage should be the issue. I have attended matches with Sams-Army before, and I believe that they do what is in their power to help the USA to victory, and they were surely noticeable at the World Cup doing everything they could even agaisnt the thousands of fans from Korea/Portugal etc.

Sure, if another group wants to form, thats good, I have no problem with that, but nobody should be bashing Sams-Army for the great effort that they put forth to help the team.

you must not be reading my posts.

"and I have nothing against Sams Army. If you ask me they are better than 90% of other US fans. They stand and wear red and go to most games in there area. So dont act like they are all losers."

[AFCA]

But are you gonna run from a fight or not? Make up your mind :D

[TheMutts]

Originally posted by AFCA
But are you gonna run from a fight or not? Make up your mind :D

ok I will clear this up. If i am walking to the bathroom and i see a kid my age in a paraguay (or any other) i am not going to push him, or punch him and more than likely wont even say anything to him.

If that same kid comes up to me and pushes me I am gonna push back. That is, unless of course NikeBlues has a problem with that in which case i would run as fast as i can as far as i can.

[law5guy]

Originally posted by rksehga
yeah, that, and a I've been to soo many games where these stupid SA guys ... a bunch a fat, ... guys...

So... let me see... USA Suppoters seem to be a rather fat bunch themselves? Take a look at the pic:

http://www.ibiblio.org/footy/2003/0329_usa_ven_ajm/web_ajm_2299.jpg

Cheers,

[vflkirwan]

There is a fine line that Mark is trying to walk with the trademark.

While encourging you to make a banner and bring it to a game without getting permission is ok, anything else is not permitted.

AND no we did not get permission from Mark to make the shirts, but I didn't get permission to make the banner either ....

At the time, I pulled the shirts from our site, offered to never make them again & offered to pay Mark a royalty per shirt we had created which was also declined.

His solution was for us to BUY SA shirts and put a newly designed logo on them. That was not going to be an option for us.

And after getting our shirts made up, using a two color logo on front and 5 color logo on back...I know how much money per shirt it should cost.

SA over charges for their t-shirts and for other items. Whether or not that profit money goes towards losses in other areas, I don't know.

Nowhere on the site does it say they are non profit and Mark has never really answered the question when called out on it so I don't know the answer.

I do know that other brigades have tried to use the SA logo in some things like a newsletter and also were turned down.

Like Freislander said....its the principle. Do you really want to be part of a supporter's club that does something like this to fellow supporters?

[dfb547490]

Originally posted by Sachin
I distinctly remeber the referee stopping play to pick up smoke bombs and take them out of play because players were trying to play through them. If that's not affecting the game, I don't know what is.

That's true, but it didn't obviosuly help one team or the other.

And as for the question about where we all stand, we are all usually in the same section. We all do work together at matches and for the most part, the anti-SA rhetoric on the USA Supporters Mailing List has died down. Most of us who engaged in it to begin with were either venting or just deemed it cool, for whatever reason, to bash Sam's Army.


We all have our different ways of supporting the US, doesn't mean we can't work together where we have common ground. A lot of people were pissed at Sam's Army over the NJB shirt issue, and because Mark Spacone and a couple of others tried to get the section singing the "Goals goals goals" song at the Jamaica WCQ, which apparently was part of some sort of deal with Phillips and the USSF. Personally, I think Sam's Army has done great things for support of soccer in this country, 95% of the people I've met in that group including Mark are great people, I just don't want to be a part of stuff like that. If others do, that's fine, but they have to realize that alternatives will exist.

[rksehga]

Originally posted by law5guy
So... let me see... USA Suppoters seem to be a rather fat bunch themselves? Take a look at the pic:

http://www.ibiblio.org/footy/2003/0329_usa_ven_ajm/web_ajm_2299.jpg

Cheers,

touche . . . hey ********ers. AndyMead is right on about why USA Supporters looks so much like SA, and as law5guy has pointed out, we look like them in stature too.

So . . . a few points

1) guys, let's get in the gym already. I am a bit chubby myself, but c'mon, let's look out for our health here.

2) whoever said it's what happens in the stadium counts is spot on.

3) TheMutts will probably get beat down at the paraguay game b/c he will be frozen with indecision about whether to run or fight.

4) I just learned how to cuss on BigSoccer and I am finding it far too amusing.

[Finnegan]

USA Supporters is a natural evolution of soccer in America...

Sams Army was a much needed thing when it started and all respect must go to those who got it off the ground.

But just like soccer in this country is changing in and improving with leaps and bounds the supporters clubs are changing also.

When Sams Army was first started MLS was not in existence and there were no Suporters Clubs of their local teams to speak of.

Now every MLS side has a supporters section and some A-League sides have some strong groups (toot my own horn hear with the Timbers Army :)).

This means that the number of "hardcore" fans of US Soccer is growing every day, we are getting younger and we are getting louder. We are figuring out things in our own stadiums and want to bring that energy to the National Side.

USA Supporters is just a natural evolution, the next step of soccer in America...kind of like Beasely and Donnovan :)