Zidane vs Christiano Ronaldo

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Yet another laughable response from the Zidane fans.

[laudrup]

Not really. Real did not play a better football with Zidane in the team. NOT AT ALL. In fact, I would say the team from 2000/2001 was better.

You can ask any Bernabeu regular and he'll tell you Zidane is the greatest player to have worn that shirt in decades.


He is only rated as better by the ignorant in our midst.

That's a powerful argument: if you rate Zidane highly you are ignorant and therefore you can't be taken seriously. Rather circular.


Champions League 01/02 - nothing aside from that goal
Anyone can score that goal, you see them by the truckload in the SPL every week...

If he scores one of the most difficult (and beautiful) goals in CL/European Cup history and you actually use that to argue that he is useless in big games, it's hard to take it seriously...

[blanc]

Tribune: 'That's the whole point. Zidane is an entertainer, not a difference maker. The best player is not the one most artistic, but the most deadly and effective. From this point of view, Zidane is not the man.'

That is an arguable point, and depending on what you believe football is, either argument becomes unbreakable or valid.

The 'beautiful game' wouldn't be beautiful if it was all efficiency.

All this talk about Zidane was only good because the team he was on, well, if you ask me, placing any player into the focal point of any top top side would not automatically make them better. Zidane did elevate these top sides he played for.

Teso Dos Bichos: Wah? Have fun arguing with walls, buddy. I have respected some of your points in the past, but you can't give credit where credit is due. Your stubbornness is admirable though.
To Troll: ZIZOU IS MY GOD MY LIVING BREATH MY HOLY ANGEL .. *HEART* ZIZOOOOOOOOOOOOOU :p

[lost]

Yet another laughable response from the Zidane fans.

Still waiting for you r 20 players better than zidane list, come one, make us all laugh a little more at you, and your dismissive aproach to those who clearly know a hell o f a lot more than you. please, i really want to see this list now, it is going to be so funny, or will you back out and pretend that you never said this?????????????

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I'm trying to revise from an exam in 2 hours and then I'm heading home to watch the semi. I will do it later.

[EstebanGranero23]

Im kinda waiting for that list as well.

[lost]

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! From having a list of 20 players that, to you, it was obvious were better than zidane, and only to 'ignorants' would zz be seen as better, now you havent got time to post 20 simple names. what a back track!! you really should think before calling other people names.

anyway, im flogging a dead horse now, im sure your regretting your comments, and to be honest, i prefer seeing you argue tottis case than slating zidane, good luck with the exams btw.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I'll need it. We only have online notes for one section of the course, as one lecturer has removed his and the other never bothered to put them up in the first place. Not going to anything for that subject this semester does not help. :(

I will post the list later and the good news is I'm on holiday from 1615!

[Tribune]

You can ask any Bernabeu regular and he'll tell you Zidane is the greatest player to have worn that shirt in decades.



1. Who are his competitors over the last 2 decades : Hugo Sanchez, Emilio Butragueno, Michel, Zamorano, Suker, Mijatovic, Redondo, Raul, Figo, Ronaldo. With the specification that Figo and Ronaldo did not spent their prime years in Real Madrid. In fact, your last top-10 all time player you had is Ferenc Puskas... exactly 40 years ago. So, those Bernabeu regulars you send me to are going to tell me that Zidane is the greatest player from the bunch mentioned above (None of the above won't make it into a top 20 ever based on their display in Real Madrid shirt anyway) ?

2. Sending me to ask "any Bernabeu regular" is really an irellevant argument. First, you don't know all the Bernabeu regulars so it's pretty ridiculous from you to assume that everybody would share your view. Second, bringing in support of your argument a statement like "you can ask people x and y and they would disagree with you" has absolutely no meaning. Especially if we keep in mind the favoritism which is to be expected towards players of the team they support and which helped their club.


3. The opinion of those "any Bernabeu regular" is pretty much pointless if it's not well argumented. Since my first comment, this thread was flooded by Zidane fans and what is particularly interesting is that none of them, although obviously outraged by my criticism of their idol, did not have at least one attempt to counter my points, instead resorting to the usual poetry about the grace and genius of Zidane.

All this talk about Zidane was only good because the team he was on, well, if you ask me, placing any player into the focal point of any top top side would not automatically make them better. Zidane did elevate these top sides he played for.

That's the only attempt of a counter I've seen until now. And a very feeble one, I must say.

Here is a hint, Galactico, from the history of your club : before Alfredo Di Stefano joined your team, Real was not capable to win a single La Liga title. The addition of Di Stefano meant that Real was able to take the title from a Barca side which, together with Atletico, dominated Primera at that period. And he did from his first season, scorind 28 goals in 27 games, including 4 goals in the infamous 5-0 trashing at Bernabeu from 1953.
Di Stefano's influence was so great, that he would make you the best team in Europe BEFORE the likes of Puskas, Kopa, Santamaria joined your team (the only all-timer helping Di Stefano between 1953-1956 was Paco Gento and he was not even top 5 material during that age) and, later, with this extra help, he will turn you into one of the best teams ever. Di Stefano's influence can be measured by how Real started to decline in Europe after Alfredo began to fade. With Di Stefano in his prime, you won more CL titles than you did in the last 40 years.
Zidane is simply not comparable.
Again, the level of your domestic dominance at that time was very rarely matched : titles in 1954, 1955, the double in 1957 and 1958, titles in 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964. Such a dominance was replicated only by La Quinta del Buitre in 1985-1990, with the difference that La Quinta did nothing in CL, while Di Stefano exerted his domination both domestically and at european level.

You say Zidane elevated this sides he played in. But you don't elaborate at all on the subject, as if it has to be an axiom which should not be demonstrated. It's not.
How did he elevate them ?

Here is Real's domestic record :

1999 : 68 points, 77 goals scored ; second place ;
2000 : 62 points, 58 goals scored ; fifth place, CL winners ;
2001 : 80 points, 81 goals scored ; champions ;
2002 : 66 points, 69 goals scored ; third place, CL winners ;
2003 : 78 points, 84 goals scored ; champions ;
2004 : 70 points, 72 goals scored ; fourth place ;

No improvement. Zidane or no Zidane, there is not much of a difference.

And in Juve :

1992 : 66 points, 45 goals, second place ;
1993 : 54 points, 59 goals scored, fourth place, UEFA Cup winners ;
1994 : 64 points, 58 goals scored, second place ;
1995 : 73 points, 59 goals scored, champions ;
1996 : 65 points, 58 goals scored, second place, CL winners ;
1997 : 65 points, 51 goals scored, champions ;
1998 : 74 points, 67 goals, champions ;
1999 : 54 points, 42 goals, sixth place ; this last one was when Del Piero got injured and Zidane should have been at his peak ;
2000 : 71 points, 46 goals, second place ;
2001 : 73 points, 61 goals, second place ;

Again no big difference. As you can clearly see, both Real Madrid and Juventus Torino built some excellent teams BEFORE Zidane arrived, thus offering him the chance to be A PART of several succesfull campaigns for titles, so his fans could boast afterwards that "Zidane has won everything yada, yada". Yet, besides his entertaining value, Zidane added very little. He did his part, but no more than an Alex Del Piero or Fernando Redondo or Luis Figo.

That is an arguable point, and depending on what you believe football is, either argument becomes unbreakable or valid.

The 'beautiful game' wouldn't be beautiful if it was all efficiency.

A great player offers both beauty and efficiency. Zidane has the first, but he lacks the second, in special in terms of impact on a game-per-game basis.
If you are so fond of artist players, I recommend you to try to acquire Brazil's games from 1982 and, in general, any game of Zico in his prime years. There are very few players who combined so well both beauty and efficiency like Zico did.

It's one thing to get emotional over one player, but a different matter to let your emotions cloud your judgement.

[Mike123]

apparently c.ronaldo has an italian nationality. Either way he could not have played for italy in 06 because he was capped for portugal from before.

ROFL

The whole thread is moronic, why compare Zidane with C.Ronaldo? Makes no sense. Let Ronaldo be: he is on his first world-class season, he still as alot of road to travel.

Zidane was one of the best players in the last 20 years, though I can ALMOST understand Teso's point of view:(

[I-Got-The-BLUES]

He is only rated as better by the ignorant in our midst. He would struggle to break the top 20 for best players in recent times.
Just replying so it automatically subscribes me. As I've been reading your hatred (yes it seems like hatred) for the GREAT Zidane. So I anticipate the list of 20 better players in recent times better than Zidane (well 19, because we already know Totti's on your list)

[blanc]

Good reply Tribune.

Yes, he was amongst great teams, but when he joined them, he elevated them in aesthetics and beauty, AT LEAST. You can argue his volley against Leverkusen attained the greatest trophy of them all. I cannot place ONE player who could have been in that spot, who would have the audacity and skill to score that goal.

Real has had lean years for awhile now, and it hasn't been down to our stars, more so our lack of depth and poor management. Zidane carried it, until unfortunately his fatigue caught up with him and the other Galacticos.

You feel Zizou is/was filmsy artistry. I disagree with your lack of reverence towards artistry. I am sure statistics don't show how many times Zidane played the second to last killer pass or whatnot, and in the main I feel statistics irrelevant.

Oh and yes, I do know Madrid's history, thank you very much. :) There were some lean years before Di Stefano, and he is a footballing God (above Pele and Maradona) in my eyes.

[blanc]

You also said we won nothing domestically before the 50's, which is wrong. While we hardly expressed the dominance we had after the 50's, we still won quite afew titles, and argubly when we did dominate, the era of professionalism had actually began. Sooo ..

League Titles: 1931/32, 1932/33
Copa del Rey: 1904/05; 1905/06; 1906/07; 1907/08; 1916/17; 1933/34; 1935/36; 1945/46; 1946/47

While it is not exactly the greatest trophy haul, it refutes that point, so you have one flawed argument ;)

:p

[TKORL]

So far Tribune has put some solid arguments on the board. Most of the responses have been, "Zidane was an elegant player", "he elevated the sides he played for".

Tribune is not denigrating artistry, but he is arguing that there are many artistic players in the game, but to make Zidane into a legend, he needs more than artistry. He is arguing that in terms of substance, Zidane does not stand out from his peers.

[Tribune]

Good reply Tribune.

Yes, he was amongst great teams, but when he joined them, he elevated them in aesthetics and beauty, AT LEAST. You can argue his volley against Leverkusen attained the greatest trophy of them all. I cannot place ONE player who could have been in that spot, who would have the audacity and skill to score that goal.

Real has had lean years for awhile now, and it hasn't been down to our stars, more so our lack of depth and poor management. Zidane carried it, until unfortunately his fatigue caught up with him and the other Galacticos.

You feel Zizou is/was filmsy artistry. I disagree with your lack of reverence towards artistry. I am sure statistics don't show how many times Zidane played the second to last killer pass or whatnot, and in the main I feel statistics irrelevant.

Oh and yes, I do know Madrid's history, thank you very much. :) There were some lean years before Di Stefano, and he is a footballing God (above Pele and Maradona) in my eyes.


You can argue his volley against Leverkusen attained the greatest trophy of them all. I cannot place ONE player who could have been in that spot, who would have the audacity and skill to score that goal.


While his volley was great, it was not the first, nor the last top-class goal scored in a CL final. Some examples :
- Dejan Savicevic goal against Barcelona in 1994 ;
- Koeman's bomb in 1992 ;
- Madjer backheel in 1987.

Just 3 of the top of my head.

Real has had lean years for awhile now, and it hasn't been down to our stars, more so our lack of depth and poor management. Zidane carried it, until unfortunately his fatigue caught up with him and the other Galacticos.


That's why I did not even brought into the equation the period after 2004, because it would have been unfair towards Zidane to be held responsible for an incompetent management.

You feel Zizou is/was filmsy artistry. I disagree with your lack of reverence towards artistry. I am sure statistics don't show how many times Zidane played the second to last killer pass or whatnot, and in the main I feel statistics irrelevant.


While assists' statistics at club level are hard to find, it's easy to count them at WC level. Zidane had 2 assists : one versus Henry last summer and another one from a corner in 1998. Hardly the best in the business, especially since his job is to create. He does not score enough and he is not an assisting machine either... Is there any wonder that his teams did not manage to improve their already attained level too much ?

If you are so fond of artistic players, I recommend you to try to get games of Brazil from 1982 and in general games of Zico. There are few players who managed to be also beautiful in their play and extremely efficient as him.
I'll upload some games of him in the video forum, you can check there if you want. Since you mentioned killer passes, I recommend you 3 cases for study : Zico assist for Socrates versus Italy in 1982, the assist for Junior against Argentina in 1982, the killer pass for Branco against France in 1986. You will not find better killer passes than those no matter how much you try.

You also said we won nothing domestically before the 50's, which is wrong. While we hardly expressed the dominance we had after the 50's, we still won quite afew titles, and argubly when we did dominate, the era of professionalism had actually began. Sooo ..

League Titles: 1931/32, 1932/33
Copa del Rey: 1904/05; 1905/06; 1906/07; 1907/08; 1916/17; 1933/34; 1935/36; 1945/46; 1946/47

While it is not exactly the greatest trophy haul, it refutes that point, so you have one flawed argument

One, the era of professionalism started a little bit earlier. The first generation of pros was the generation of Meazza, Leonidas da Silva and Charro Moreno. But that's beside the point.
Turning back to the issue : I knew about your titles back in 1932 and 1933, I forgot to mention them because they were 2 decades before. But I think the improvement in your performances in the Di Stefano era is obvious. The last trophy you won was a Copa del Rey in 1947. Then there were six dry years, plus during that period you have your worse standing in the league, something like the 9th position around 1947 or 1948. At that time, you were literally trailing behind Barcelona and Atletico... in the best of cases !

Tribune is not denigrating artistry, but he is arguing that there are many artistic players in the game, but to make Zidane into a legend, he needs more than artistry. He is arguing that in terms of substance, Zidane does not stand out from his peers.

Examples : Enzo Francescoli, Zidane's childhood hero, and Fernando Redondo.

[Dark Savante]

Tribune has made some very good, fair and solid points in this thread that have been wholly ignored by those touting Zidane.

It would be nice to see them contested rather than skipped over.

If I were to ask those who rate Zidane over anyone else from his generation...why he is 'better' than say: Sammer, Redondo, Rivaldo, Figo for starters, what replies would I get??

[lanman]

Tribune - I'm out of rep otherwise some would be coming your way. Extremely well put and pretty much sums up my thoughts on Zidane.

[babaorum]

Good points Tribune. As much as I like Zidane, your points are not really questionable.

However you focused too much on Zidane's club carreer I think.
Zidane's NT carreer is a much different stuff - there is no doubt that his influence was huge on France's success and general level of play between 1994 and 2006 (especially 1998-2002 and 2005-2006), much more than on the successive clubs he played with in the meanwhile. His level of play was much higher and consistent with France.

You'll rightfully tell me that he was surrounded by other great players and especially an all-time best defense with Desailly, Thuram, Deschamps etc. but the French team would have never achieved so much in 1998, 2000 and 2006 without him. France was crap when Zidane was injured (WC2002), off-form (EC2004... even though he scored four goals) or during his retirement in the WC2006 qualifiers.

Even his stats stats show his efficiency for France - he scored 31 goals and he had 23 assists in 108 caps. But they don't say everything - when he was on the field, France only lost 5 games between 1994 and 2006. When he was off the field due to coaching, injury or retirement (2004-2005), France lost 10games and drawed quite a lot. The fact is that France could never really play well without Zidane or with an off-form Zidane (which was quite rare to be honest). His influence on the field was huge like Platini in the past. That's the big difference with his club carreer.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

But, just for the humour value in it, go ahead and name a list of 20 players that zidane would 'struggle' to break into. No one pre 1997, more than ten years is not 'recent times'. This should be good for a laugh.

Schmeichel, Kahn, Buffon, Maldini, Lizarazu, Carlos, Zambrotta, Cafu, Zanetti, Nesta, Campbell, Stam, Ayala, Blanc, Desailly, Thuram, Ferdinand, Giggs, Figo, Overmars, Redondo, Keane, Scholes, Cocu, Makelele, Vieira, Davids, Ballack, Effenberg, Matthaus, Scholl, Veron, Paulo Sousa, Micoud, Mendieta, Riquelme, Rui Costa, Nedved, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Totti, Zola, Del Piero, Baggio, Nakata, Ronaldo, Raul, Bergkamp, Henry, Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer.

That's 50 odd off the top of my head.

[Leto]

Tribune - very well argued points. The post a little further up should be a staple of the oh-so-frequent Zidane threads. It would be nice to see some considered responses from the pro-Zidane camp.

Repped, and well deserved.