Zidane vs Christiano Ronaldo

[FARFAN 17]

How many players would love to atleast be in the position to be able to lose 3 European finals. ;)

[O Fenômeno]

why is this a debate??

CR fans go kick rocks...

[TKORL]

UEFA Cup 95/96 - anonymous
Champions League 96/97 - anonymous
Champions League 97/98 - anonymous
1998 World Cup - good performance, two goals
Euro 2000 - anonymous
Champions League 01/02 - nothing aside from that goal
2006 World Cup - sent off in disgrace

He was the first player to lose three successive European finals.
The three finals he lost were also earlier in his career. But after 98 final, I'm not really sure how you can say that he was anonymous in the Euro final. And what the hell does it mean "nothing aside from that goal"? There is really no point to some of your statements. How are you going to back up the claim "anonymous in Euro 2000 final"? You cannot.


I think you just like to argue.

[botch]

Sorry, your answer is incorrect. Please try again later.

a dude from scotland saying zidane is overrated. Ha. natural laws say you are not allowed to say such things.

[botch]

titles define a great player. ha.

Zidane is a GOD. he is one of the most balanced athletes in sports history with complete mastery of the ball. he is the best player in his position in the history of the game and possibly the best passer. the epitome of a midfielder.

George Best didn't win much, is he also not a great player?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

The three finals he lost were also earlier in his career. But after 98 final, I'm not really sure how you can say that he was anonymous in the Euro final. And what the hell does it mean "nothing aside from that goal"? There is really no point to some of your statements. How are you going to back up the claim "anonymous in Euro 2000 final"? You cannot.


I think you just like to argue.

You asked the question and I gave you the answer. It is not my fault that you cannot accept the implications of it. He was 23-25 (born in June, so an old 23-25) during the three finals he consecutively lost, so I don't think you can simply excuse them by saying they were 'earlier' in his career. He had a very good Euro 2000 tournament (his best) but Albertini marked him out of the final and he struggled to make an impact. He had a similar problem in the 01/02 CL Final but scored that great goal which covered up his poor performance overall. Even if you insist on saying he played a good game because of one strike, that still leaves 5 out of 7 finals in which he blew it. Considering Zidane is noted for being a 'clutch player', he is clearly not a very good one given that record in finals. Granted I like to argue but what really annoys me is when idiots put Zidane on a level he does not merit. Idiots like the one below...

a dude from scotland saying zidane is overrated. Ha. natural laws say you are not allowed to say such things.

titles define a great player. ha.

Zidane is a GOD. he is one of the most balanced athletes in sports history with complete mastery of the ball. he is the best player in his position in the history of the game and possibly the best passer. the epitome of a midfielder.

George Best didn't win much, is he also not a great player?

Go back to your Zidane circle jerk. Your post requires no further response and I'll leave it for others to read your idiocy and come to their own conclusions.

[lost]

Zidane overrated? Wtf have you people been smoking, watching Zizou is what football is about, he was a genious and no player had more control over the ball during his era. He will be remembered as greater than all the greats of his generation, such as Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Figo, Shevchenko, Henry, Nedved, Ballack, Ronaldinho, Totti, Del Piero, Raul, Rui Costa, Boban, Veron, Giggs and Scholes. If you are rated as better than all these, how can that be over rated?????

[red & wite army]

2006 World Cup - sent off in disgrace


I agree that Zidane is overrated, but to sum up his World Cup in that is just completely and utterly retard...much like the way this thread is running!

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Zidane overrated? Wtf have you people been smoking, watching Zizou is what football is about, he was a genious and no player had more control over the ball during his era. He will be remembered as greater than all the greats of his generation, such as Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Figo, Shevchenko, Henry, Nedved, Ballack, Ronaldinho, Totti, Del Piero, Raul, Rui Costa, Boban, Veron, Giggs and Scholes. If you are rated as better than all these, how can that be over rated?????

He is only rated as better by the ignorant in our midst. He would struggle to break the top 20 for best players in recent times.

I agree that Zidane is overrated, but to sum up his World Cup in that is just completely and utterly retard...much like the way this thread is running!

The post was referring to his performances, or lack of, in major finals in order to dispel the 'clutch player' tag that he has somehow gained.

[lost]

Teso, no one agrees with you on this issue. Totti will be forgotten within a decade, Zizou's name will be remebered alongside names such as Cruyff, Puskas, Platini, and other such european greats. If you want to try and insult people by calling them uninformed, feel free. But to try and write off zz's european records by saying 'crap final'and hoping that, like you, others had not actually watched the seasons in question, really does make me laugh. Then to say he had no impact on euro 2000, lol, you must have been watching a different tourney to the rest of us, this was zidanes tournament, his only dream after this was to have the same impact on a world cup that he did over the euro, which, arguably, he achieved in 2006. interntionaly, only ronaldo can be said to have had the same impact as zz since maradona's days. in terms of the european cup, he went to 3 champions league finals, just to clarify, that is three times the number that the entire scottish population has enjoyed since 1985, so write that off if it makes you feel good. that is also 3 more than totti, just so you know.

to hear you write off zz and then call others uninformed is just funny, you are clearly very bitter about something he has done or said in his career, and if only you had actualy watched him play at some point, you would not be saying these things. its a pity you were so hung up about him that you were unable to enjoy his career like the rest of us did, but this is something i pity you for. as i said, watching players like zizou is why we watch football, it is as close to heaven and the divine as many of us will ever experience, poetry in motion, perfection, grace, elegance, poise, he was an artist, moreso than any player i can think of since maradona. his technical perfection puts him up there with van basten, his creativity puts him up there with garincha, his control puts him up there with maradona, his skill puts him up there with pele. he was an absolute freak of nature and one that we will not see again for many years.

[Tribune]

Teso, no one agrees with you on this issue. Totti will be forgotten within a decade, Zizou's name will be remebered alongside names such as Cruyff, Puskas, Platini, and other such european greats. If you want to try and insult people by calling them uninformed, feel free. But to try and write off zz's european records by saying 'crap final'and hoping that, like you, others had not actually watched the seasons in question, really does make me laugh. Then to say he had no impact on euro 2000, lol, you must have been watching a different tourney to the rest of us, this was zidanes tournament, his only dream after this was to have the same impact on a world cup that he did over the euro, which, arguably, he achieved in 2006. interntionaly, only ronaldo can be said to have had the same impact as zz since maradona's days. in terms of the european cup, he went to 3 champions league finals, just to clarify, that is three times the number that the entire scottish population has enjoyed since 1985, so write that off if it makes you feel good. that is also 3 more than totti, just so you know.

to hear you write off zz and then call others uninformed is just funny, you are clearly very bitter about something he has done or said in his career, and if only you had actualy watched him play at some point, you would not be saying these things. its a pity you were so hung up about him that you were unable to enjoy his career like the rest of us did, but this is something i pity you for. as i said, watching players like zizou is why we watch football, it is as close to heaven and the divine as many of us will ever experience, poetry in motion, perfection, grace, elegance, poise, he was an artist, moreso than any player i can think of since maradona. his technical perfection puts him up there with van basten, his creativity puts him up there with garincha, his control puts him up there with maradona, his skill puts him up there with pele. he was an absolute freak of nature and one that we will not see again for many years.


What a load of nonsense, man. Let's settle these once and for all.

But to try and write off zz's european records by saying 'crap final'and hoping that, like you, others had not actually watched the seasons in question, really does make me laugh. Then to say he had no impact on euro 2000, lol, you must have been watching a different tourney to the rest of us, this was zidanes tournament, his only dream after this was to have the same impact on a world cup that he did over the euro, which, arguably, he achieved in 2006. interntionaly,

Laughable is only your idea that Zidane had an immense tournament in 2006. Zidane's performance is below to what Rivaldo did in 2002 (that so we should not go very far in the past) and Rivaldo was not MVP in that WC. Zidane looked remotely impressive in 2006 simple because all the other stars were utter shit, not because he was somehow outstanding.

Let's analyze this point by point.

He was garbage in the group stage. Versus Spain, Zidane scored at the last minute, when France already had 2-1 and the game was practically decided. Very far from being considered a "match-winning performance".

Versus Brazil, he had his best game. Let's see, what did Zidane do in this supposed "best game" ? He "controlled the pace of the game", had 3 or 4 runs at the brazilian defenders and gave one assist. You'll have to excuse because I'm about to sin and not really fall head over heels for that assist : it wasn't exactly a fantastic defence-splitting pass. In comparison with Zico's assist from 1982 or 1986, it was a very average one. If Roberto Carlos had not been in coocoo land at that time, it's very likely that would not have been a goal. And, btw, despite Zidane controlling the pace of the game and playing a "fantastic" match, despite playing against an opponent who was utter shit and horribly coached (the crappiest Brazil side I've ever seen in my whole life, worse than the ones from 1990 and 1974), France still needed a monstruous defensive mistake from Brazil in order to win. Quite embarassing, isn't it ? Compare this "exceptional" game of Zidane with Cruyff's performance versus Argentina in 1974, please.

Versus Portugal and Italy. Yeah, Zidane scored... two penalties, which he did not earn himself.

in terms of the european cup, he went to 3 champions league finals, just to clarify, that is three times the number that the entire scottish population has enjoyed since 1985, so write that off if it makes you feel good. that is also 3 more than totti, just so you know.

He went to 2 CL finals with the most dominant teams in Europe at that time, you forgot to say. Zidane or no Zidane, Juventus and Real Madrid had enough quality to make it to the finals as they already proved it on the pitch (Juve in 1996, Real in 2000).

Zidane built himself a huge reputation by being a part of some of the best teams of the last decade and stealing the show in several crucial moments. That's all. If not for those moments, he wouldn't be rated higher than Roberto Baggio, Rivaldo or Figo.

First, Zidane's goal ratio is pretty much embarassing for a player in his position.

Girondins - 135 games, 28 goals = 0.20
Juventus - 151 games, 24 goals = 0.158
Real Madrid - 155 games, 37 goals = 0.238

Look at this example :

Hierro - 439 games, 102 goals = 0.232
Sinisa Mihajlovic - 383 games, 48 goals (all in Italy) = 0.125
Koeman (in Spain) = 191 games, 67 goals = 0.35

Zidane's ratio in Italy is only slighly better than the ratio of Mihajlovic and Zidane is an attacking midfielder !
For instance, Totti, a player from a similar position, scored 140 goals in 359 games in Serie A and has a goal ratio of 0.39 goals per game.

Now the usual excuse for Zidane's pathetic goal ratio is that he "controls the pace of the game". Let's see what is this about.

I wonder, did anyone wonder to look what exactly are the results of this ? Ok, Zidane dominates the whole pace of the game. So what ?
Look at Zidane's best game from the last WC, which was instrumental in getting him the "best player" award. Zidane "dominated the pace of the game", but France did not manage to pull out a convincing win against the shittiest Brazil side since 1974 who had on the bench one of the shittiest coaches I have ever seen. When Pareira brought Robinho, Brazil managed to even the odds and had one clear chance to equalize. In the last 10 minutes !


Let's look at his time in Real Madrid. Zidane dominated the pace of the game too, but the best Real Madrid team I've seen over the last decade was the one from 2000/2001, not the one with Zidane. Go figure, Zidane dictating the pace did not help Real to improve its football an inch. Zidane won the best european player ever award ? Wow ! You know, when you add such a fantastic performer to an already top-class team like Real Madrid from 2001, I would expect that the quality of that team to jump into the sky, become a contender for the greatest team ever and dominate the competitions by a great margin. Did it happen like that ? Not really. Real did not play a better football with Zidane in the team. NOT AT ALL. In fact, I would say the team from 2000/2001 was better.

So, what's with all this hype about Zidane controlling the pace of the game, since his teams rarely benefit from this ? The effect is not impressive at all. Juventus, for instance, did not suffer at all when Zidane left them and had no problems replacing him with Nedved. Zidane not being there to control the game did not stop Juventus from winning two other scudettos.

Zidane simply jumped into the most succesful boat available. He was added to the most proeminent teams from Europe at their peak and he did not added too much to already winning sides. Zidane did not turn his stay there into a golden age for the respective club, he did not achieve some unprecedented success, no unbeatability record, etc.

you are clearly very bitter about something he has done or said in his career, and if only you had actualy watched him play at some point, you would not be saying these things. its a pity you were so hung up about him that you were unable to enjoy his career like the rest of us did, but this is something i pity you for.

That's the whole point. Zidane is an entertainer, not a difference maker. The best player is not the one most artistic, but the most deadly and effective. From this point of view, Zidane is not the man.

For instance, let's see when Zidane delivered. In 1998, Zidane, overall, was ordinary, despite the fact that France had one of the best defenses ever. His stellar moment was in 2000 and this is considered his best and the focal point of his career. Do you notice something interesting about that team ? If you don't, I tell you : that french team was PERFECT ! The biggest problem of France in 1998 was the lack of some good forwards, well in 2000 they had this problem solved, with Henry, who played his only good tournament for France at that time. Only in this environment, in the greatest team France ever assembled, was Zidane capable to shine in full. The same happens at this club : Zidane needs exceptional teams around him in order to shine. When Juventus had problems in 1999 due to Del Piero's injury, Zidane fall into a pit and did nothing. When Real started to struggle, Zidane struggled with them and all his "controlling the pace of the game" disappeared like a fart in the wind.

I would like to see how Zidane will fare when he does not have some of the best defenders, like Blanc, Thuram, Desailly, Makelele or Vieira, to watch his back. As long as everything is fine (read : his team is the best or the opposition shoots himself in the leg), Zidane does well. When things turn ugly, Zidane's performances drop considerably.



Look a little bit at the Ballon d'Or rankings over the last decade and see how many players from his teams were nominated :

1997 : Zidane is third ; others from Juve : Deschamps, Del Piero, Peruzzi, Ferrara ;
1998 : Zidane comes first ; others from Juve : Davids, Del piero, Deschamps ; from France : Thuram, Desailly, Petit, Blanc, Barthez, Deschamps, Lizarazu ;
1999 : This year whole Juventus was crap, so Zidane himself came on 19, and Davids on 26 ;
2000 : Davids from Juve ; this is tricky, since Zidane came second on the back of his Euro performance ; let's see how many players from France appear on the list : Henry, Barthez, Trezeguet, Desailly, Blanc ;
2001 : Again, Juve underperforms ; Zidane finishes on 9, Trezeguet on 12 ;
2002 : Zidane comes forth ; others : Roberto Carlos, Raul, Figo ;
2003 : Zidane comes fifth ; others : Raul, Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo,
2004 : Figo on 22, Zidane on 23 ;

Do you see a pattern here ? If you don't, I tell you : Zidane appears high on the list only when a good number of players from his teams appear as well ; when you don't see anymore on the lists players from Zidane's teams, Zidane drops dramatically in ranking. What does that means ? It means that when his teams underperforms, Zidane does nothing.


Got it ?

zizou is why we watch football, it is as close to heaven and the divine as many of us will ever experience, poetry in motion, perfection, grace, elegance, poise, he was an artist, moreso than any player i can think of since maradona. his technical perfection puts him up there with van basten, his creativity puts him up there with garincha, his control puts him up there with maradona, his skill puts him up there with pele. he was an absolute freak of nature and one that we will not see again for many years.

Dude, this is a football forum, not a procession.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Very good post. :cool:

Teso, no one agrees with you on this issue. Totti will be forgotten within a decade, Zizou's name will be remebered alongside names such as Cruyff, Puskas, Platini, and other such european greats.

Zidane is not even in the same league as Totti, let alone the true greats of the game that you mentioned. It is sad that Zidane gets so much unmerited praise when better players are often underrated or forgotten.

Then to say he had no impact on euro 2000, lol, you must have been watching a different tourney to the rest of us...

If you cannot read then there is not much hope for you. I clearly stated on numerous occasions that Zidane had a good Euro 2000 tournament. What he did not have was a good Euro 2000 Final and that is what was being discussed. His performances, or lack of, in major finals.

it is as close to heaven and the divine as many of us will ever experience, poetry in motion, perfection, grace, elegance, poise, he was an artist, moreso than any player i can think of since maradona. his technical perfection puts him up there with van basten, his creativity puts him up there with garincha, his control puts him up there with maradona, his skill puts him up there with pele. he was an absolute freak of nature and one that we will not see again for many years.

The vast majority of that post deals with aesthetics and has no relevance to the talent of a player, particularly in relation to others. It is a key point. I am not denying that Zidane was the things I bolded above. However, there is a big difference between the things I bolded and being a great football player, something Zidane was not. The latter part of that section and the comparisons you attempted to make have no basis in reality and is you clearly highlighting your bias towards a player who aesthetically pleased you. If you think we will not see similar for many years then you are correct. We can already see better in Riquelme who, unlike Zidane, combines aesthetics with end product.

[TKORL]

I agree with much of Tribune's post, I do agree that he is overrated, however, he did have a habit of scoring goals at the right time. Totti never did. Just for that he deserves praise.

Just look at Paolo Rossi, he had about 3 outstanding games in his career, and that is the only reason Italy remembers him.

[lost]

[QUOTE=Teso Dos Bichos;11412519]He is only rated as better by the ignorant in our midst. He would struggle to break the top 20 for best players in recent times.QUOTE]

After reading comments like this, people don't realy have to read any more, do they? But, just for the humour value in it, go ahead and name a list of 20 players that zidane would 'struggle' to break into. No one pre 1997, more than ten years is not 'recent times'. This should be good for a laugh.

[gazzad_5]

ha, teso is at it again, funny stuff it reli is

[toonarmy44]

Zidane is my favourite player of all time, to have him even mentioned in the same breath as Totti is laughable and insulting. Totti is quite possably the most overrated player in the history of the game. Admittedly I don't watch serie A very often but I must have seen at least 20 full games that he has played in over the last few years and he has just been totally average in every one and hasent stood out in any one of them (maybe I just caught him on a bad day). I have been much more impressed by Kaka.

Zidane on the other hand has been immense whenever I watched him. Even if he did not have the greatest of his games, he still had brief moments of utter class that no other player could do and was simply on another level to anyone else on the pitch. The way he controlled the ball was poetry and he seemed to have a unique style. The joker who said he had no impact in tournaments like Euro 2000 or in the champions league in 2002 has clearly been smoking something.

[Tribune]

Zidane on the other hand has been immense whenever I watched him. Even if he did not have the greatest of his games, he still had brief moments of utter class that no other player could do and was simply on another level to anyone else on the pitch. The way he controlled the ball was poetry and he seemed to have a unique style. The joker who said he had no impact in tournaments like Euro 2000 or in the champions league in 2002 has clearly been smoking something.


Do you at least bother to read what was said before you or just feel the need to type something, no matter what ?

to have him even mentioned in the same breath as Totti is laughable and insulting.

No more than mentioning Zidane in the same breath as Pele, Maradona, Garrincha, Puskas etc.

[lost]

I said he had qualities that resembled theirs, the only one i rate zidane higher than out of those 4 that i mentioned is Van Basten, the other three are the most skillfull three players in history, zidane goes in the top ten in this category.

[O Fenômeno]

Look why the fuss??

I think teso you just like to argue...who cares about zizou not being clutch...or w/e you wanna say.

Zidane= class...and a great

this shouldn't be a debate...

[blanc]

Zidane is a great.

Goals win games, Zidane scored crucial goals.

Anyone who disagrees with Zizou being amongst the greatest players ever is an absolute retard. No argument.

/leaves thread never to return, because I don't indulge trolls :)