Bigsoccer Writers Thread

[Aimer, Northend Diva]

Originally posted by Footix


What are you talking about? I don't see a single reaction to your first post on this thread.

well I was going to say that it was a comment made elsewhere, but the link is there now.

Someone called me a racist in my journal comments because I was going off about the ghetto Walmart in Panorama City. I had to hit the delete button on that one. I have a friend who is Filipino, he likes to say "i'm not racist, I'm an equal opportunity hater"

I don't think anyone is hateful snobs, for the record.

[Michael K.]

Bumpin' it wit my bad self.

[whirlwind]

Now that we're done with the Aimer segue...

How do you generally begin a new story, especially one of novel length? What I mean is, do you create a character (complete with looks, strengths, faults, name) or a setting, or write an outline (chapter 1, our protagonist finds a sword embedded in a boulder...)?

I seem to always begin with maps. I doodle a map on graph paper, inventing the place in which the story happens.

Here's the current example (it's larger than full screen, be forewarned):

http://whirlwindproductions.com/opk/opk_map3.gif

How about you?

[Dr. Wankler]

Originally posted by whirlwind
I seem to always begin with maps. I doodle a map on graph paper, inventing the place in which the story happens.

Here's the current example (it's larger than full screen, be forewarned):

http://whirlwindproductions.com/opk/opk_map3.gif

How about you?

That's interesting. I can see where that would be essential for fantasy/SF. I wonder how it works for mundane fiction... As a digression, anyone know if Faulkner sketched out Yoknawpatawpha (sp? obviously) early on, or is that one map of it something he made up after awhile?

For me (shortstory length here) it's best just to start writing. Have characters doing something, and see where it goes. Then maps/sketches come in handy later for getting out of the messes I've made.

[Ghost]

FOr me, I usually think the story through in my head for a long period of time. Then I start writing. With jmy style lately, I usually manufacture a setting first, and thlt the story circulate about the feeling of the place. i usually focus on one objecvt and then move to a wider setting. Characters are a second or third paragraph thing(and second and third in the order of creation)

Iget very sick of the "MFA rules" that you'll see in the first paragraphs of the The wrost of which is the embedding of usually three characters' names in the first paragraph and establishing a direction for the story. This reminds me of a journalist's lead.I do enouugh of that all day already.

[whirlwind]

Any "books on writing" you recommend (or warn away from?)

I've read the following:

Orson Scott Card, "How to Write Fantasy & SF". Recommend. OSC is brilliant.

Diana Wynne Jones, "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland". Recommend, sorta. It's helpful in reminding you of the tired, overused plots, character archetypes, and so on.

there are others... I'll look them up and add them later...

[irvine]

<screed>

I am of the opinion that one of the first things you should do if you want to write for publication is destroy all copies of how-to-write books that currently clutter up your shelves. Everything you might learn from them can better be learned by just reading and studying writers you admire--Ender's Game itself, for example, will teach you more about writing books like it than a how-to book by Scott Card.

You can't learn how to write from reading a book about how to write. You can only learn to write from reading books by good writers and working to see how they do it. Then you go try to do it yourself.

</screed>

That said, writing books often have neat anecdotes in them which serve to make the whole uphill slog a little less lonely.

[olckicker]

I just start writing and often try to follow my professor's advice of starting with a good first sentence and go from there...

[olckicker]

"What do you write about?" What's your answer? I hate that question and usually say "stuff."

At a recent job interview I was asked: "what do you write about...science fiction, historical fiction...?" Obviously, I couldn't say "stuff" this time so I said "some science fiction...but I don't want to get into specifics...whatever I write I place as much importance on how I tell a story as well as what I tell...that's also my approach to my writing at work..."

[Ghost]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by irvine
<screed>

I am of the opinion that one of the first things you should do if you want to write for publication is destroy all copies of how-to-write books that currently clutter up your shelves. Everything you might learn from them can better be learned by just reading and studying writers you admire--Ender's Game itself, for example, will teach you more about writing books like it than a how-to book by Scott Card.

You can't learn how to write from reading a book about how to write. You can only learn to write from reading books by good writers and working to see how they do it. Then you go try to do it yourself.

</screed>

Did anyone else have to read the John Gardner "Writing Fiction" book, which was de rigeur in writing classes in the early to mid 90s (at least)? I actually sat down and read it. I think it's very popular to dismiss these books because they seem to offer a "just-add-water" approach that promises more than they could ever hope to deliver. But I think they can give you help in the sense of providing a young writer with a framework of elements to think about that they might not ordinarily consider. The best parts of the books are not the actual instruction, but the way that they will use examples to illustrate their points about writing. It can provide a young writer with a way to examine the works of authors and provide them with concrete examples.

But obviously it can't offer an easy formula, and it can't tell you how to write. Ultimately that's something that you have to develop yourself.

On a side note ----

Irvine,

In another thread, I saw you mention that you had a job in Ann Arbor in the 80s. Are you a graduate of UM? I am, class of 1995. I think Whirlwind is as well. It would be interesting that three graduates wind up on the same board, gravitating to this same thread about writing. We may have to hold these discussions in Angell Hall or East Engin.

Is that place that you worked downtown on Main Street? I think I bought some sweaters there in 1991. Good sweaters. Darn good sweaters .....

[Ghost]

Or is it fifth street, up from Liberty ... I'm getting old.

[irvine]

Marty's was on State near Liberty, right across from the old Borders (where I also used to work, back before they were a faceless conglomerate). The space is now occupied by a T-shirt shop, I think. And they did have damn fine sweaters.

I graduated from UM in '91. It is interesting that we're all clustered here. We should get statisticians and actuaries involved to figure out what it means...

Originally posted by Ghost
Or is it fifth street, up from Liberty ... I'm getting old.

[Michael K.]

Both of Gardner's books (the titles are slipping my mind at the moment) are excellent - at least if you're writing so-called 'serious' or 'literary' fiction (and I realize that term, as well as the very idea, is more than a little condescending, but I'll let it be for now). I look back at them every now and then.

I've heard that Annie Lamott's 'Bird by Bird' is pretty good as far as 'inspirational' writing books go, though I haven't read any more than a chapter assigned to one of my classes. She actually was one of the seminar leaders the summer I went to Bread Loaf and I remember that her kid - who she writes all about in this book - was always running round.

I find myself gravitating to writers' biographies and, in particular, diaries - not because they're all that great at explaining the nuts and bolts of writing, but because I get to see that people I admire like Gide and Cocteau and Frisch and Musil and Nabokov and Hemingway and loads of others also spent days and days wondering if they'd ever write anything decent again.

If you're searching for 'inspiration', I can't recommend highly enough Rilke's 'Letters to a Young Poet'.

[Ghost]

Originally posted by irvine
Marty's was on State near Liberty, right across from the old Borders (where I also used to work, back before they were a faceless conglomerate). The space is now occupied by a T-shirt shop, I think. And they did have damn fine sweaters.

I graduated from UM in '91. It is interesting that we're all clustered here. We should get statisticians and actuaries involved to figure out what it means...



Not to disparage the quality of the sweaters at Marty's, but I believe I bought my fine sweaters at a different place. I remember the name Marty's menswear, but I can't quite place it. I assume it was up near Jason's Sandwiches. There was a cafe on the corner of State and Liberty. But that could describe half the corners in town.

I am old enough to remember the old Borders, which was two-stories and really a nook in a hole in the wall near the State Theater.. They always put out two or three carts full of books on the street to make sure that the free flow of sidewalk traffic was duly interrupted. They moved to the new shiny location on Liberty in my junior year. I too liked the older version better.

I'll just check to see if you know these two CW teachers (These were the two I took classes with before I opted out of the workshop setting)...

Alyson Hagy who was a prof;

Marie Ashley an MFA student, may have been a first-year grad student in 1990-1991. A stunning redheaded poet. If you'd seen her, you'd remember. Now I fully expect yoiu to say, "Yeah, I know her. She's my wife. Shut up."

[Michael K.]

Originally posted by Dr. Wankler

Those of you who are into various manifestations of popular culture might want to check out my friends E-zine, the new issue of which is due any time now...

http://www.habitsofwaste.wwu.edu

I have a review under my screen name, and an interview with novelist Alex Shakar and an review of Our Band Could Be Your Life under my non-screen name.

I'm taking a slow Friday afternoon to catch up on a lot of things I haven't read but meant to. Really liked the Alex Shakar interview.

[irvine]

I never took a workshop at UM. I did have a brief, er, fling with an MFA student there, but she wasn't either of the people you mention. My degree was in theater (after three semesters of aerospace engineering), and I spent most of my time doing plays and drinking beer.

Originally posted by Ghost
I'll just check to see if you know these two CW teachers (These were the two I took classes with before I opted out of the workshop setting)...


And in the department of shameless self-promotion, here's a review of a recent chapbook of mine...

http://www.locusmag.com/2002/Reviews/Gevers08_Chapbooks.html

[oman]

One short story published in the Daily Texans' Weekend Guide (UT Austin student paper). Claim to fame is that graphic artist Chris Ware (Jimmy Corrigan, etc.) did an illustration for the story. I didn't know Chris, but he did a nice illustration for it. Picture of a mean guy with a shotgun in his hand and a faceless child...

Shitload of stories in the can and some doggerel as well. I was criticised in my short story college classes for writing stories that had endings that were too happy. (Other than the one that got published.)

[Dr. Wankler]

Originally posted by Michael K.


I'm taking a slow Friday afternoon to catch up on a lot of things I haven't read but meant to. Really liked the Alex Shakar interview.

Thanks. Check out the book if you get the chance. A pretty fair first novel, I think.

On the subject of "How-to-write" books, I think most of them are designed for people who want to be writers, but don't want to take the time to... well, you know, WRITE. But reading such books allows the readers to imagine what it might be like to actually write, and so they sell.

But there are still good ones. Gardner's have been mentioned, and I think another good one is David Madden's book on revising fiction. Another is one I'm going to use for an undergraduate workshop I recently found out I'm teaching. It's called A Passion for Narrative, and it's by a Canadian novelist named Jack Hodgins. As with the other books mentioned in this paragraph, the working assumption is that the readers of this book have ALREADY written something, and are trying to learn how to make it better, and how to make the next things they write better still. Of course, I'll know in 15 weeks or so whether or not the book is actually helpful to people.

[oman]

The Perpetual Orgy by Mario Vargas Llosa is a good book about Madame Bovary. The parts I remembered most were his talking about Flaubert's work-a-day habits as a writer. Inspiring, I thought.

[Michael K.]

Originally posted by oman
The Perpetual Orgy by Mario Vargas Llosa is a good book about Madame Bovary. The parts I remembered most were his talking about Flaubert's work-a-day habits as a writer. Inspiring, I thought.


Life is like a bowl of soup with hairs floating on it. You have to eat it nevertheless. -- Flaubert


Love that quote.