Bigsoccer Writers Thread

[Jacen McCullough]

Originally posted by phats_away
from what i understand there are a ton of post grad creative writing schools. i know my schook (georgia state u) has masters and phd. and of course there's iowa...


True, but I don't really want to stray too far from the MD/NY/PA area.

JMac

[Ghost]

Jacen,

US News did a ranking of the country's creative writing programs once, in 1997. THey still have it on their site, but aparently they've gone to pay for the articles recently. But it contained a ton of programs.

I've been looking for a writter's group, and I'll likely use the site.

[Michael K.]

Originally posted by Ghost
Jacen,

US News did a ranking of the country's creative writing programs once, in 1997. THey still have it on their site, but aparently they've gone to pay for the articles recently. But it contained a ton of programs.



Someone had a private website up about Creative Writing MFA programs in general, and the US News and World Report rankings in particular, which more or less said they weren't worth regarding too highly, because though Iowa (#1 in the rankings) or some of the other top ones (Johns Hopkins, I seem to remember... and Houston were near the top...I think) may have scored high in these 'objective' rankings, there's no guarantee that one of those is the right program for you. An idea which makes perfect sense. So I would say they're a guideline, at best.

[Ghost]

Agree, Michael. Not recommending the rankings so much as giving Jacen a list of programs. He seemed to be under the mistaken impression that there are a grand total of 12.

[Michael K.]

Originally posted by Jacen McCullough



Just out of curiosity, but where are you doing your Masters? I'm looking to do my graduate work in creative writing as well, but not too many schools seem to have a program.

Right now I'm enrolled in the Creative Writing MA program at City College of New York, though I've only taken two classes there (one each semester), and haven't been going since last fall (didn't do any classes this spring.) I applied there because it was in NYC, where I wanted to be, and because one of the top profs in the program is a guy who has worked with one author I'm a huge fan of (the Swiss playwright/author Max Frisch), and edited the published diaries of another one of the authors I'm really, really into (Robert Musil, author of the brilliant, you-must-read-it 'The Man Without Qualities') - so I thought it would be well worth taking his seminar. That's all well and good, but his classes are also very popular and no more than 15 or so are allowed in, so I haven't gotten to take his class yet.
Instead I ended up in one fiction seminar that was halfway decent, even if the instructor was coming from a totally different place than I am; however, the other one (to be fair, there was a lot of stuff going on in my life at that moment and I didn't give 100%) just didn't do anything for me. I felt the teacher (who'll remain nameless) was more than a bit condescending or...something. Not just towards me either. But whatever. The plain fact of the matter is that I've had to rethink my attitude towards doing a MA in this area, because I've never been too big a fan of writing workshops. (I've also had to rethink whether I wanted it to be at CCNY - it's a nice program with some good instructors, but the program is 100% part-time, with only night classes. I never felt like I was 'in school' at all when I showed up at class at 6:30, spent an hour and a half there, and split.)

In a classroom workshop environment - especially at a 'higher level', like grad school, where everyone is trying to prove their mettle, at least a little - there's definitely a pressure to comment in some way - any way - on the stories being submitted. And let's face it - though you're supposed to read the 2 or 3 pieces each week and make a detailed critique of the work for the class, many people either
a) don't read the work (I know, because I failed to on some occasions)
b) completely miss the point of what the writer is attempting to do, or worse, just ask stupid, fairly meaningless questions about why you wrote this or that or didn't write it; 'why don't you add something about ------?'.
It's not exactly the workshopper's fault - it's more the Tyranny of the Workshop, and here's where, in my mind, the insidious sameness of MA/MFA program literature can be traced to. You don't HAVE to listen to your fellow workshoppers when they say 'why don't you write more about -----' (minor character seen for an instant, whom you're happy to leave that way) or 'I'm not sure I like that word/phrase there' when you put it there in fit of whimsy or pique, and you're content with it as it is. You don't have to listen, and this skill of not-listening to everything that comes up in a workshop is one well worth acquiring. In my case, I think I overcompensate, and really don't listen much at all, except maybe to the instructor, and only if he/she's got my interest and respect (I'm a bit individualistic like that). And if that's the case, I ask myself, what's the point of spending the money and showing up?

I've found more success in online writing workshops, curiously, because you can critique in a different way than in a classroom. I'm a great fan of quote-cut-paste critiquing. Also, because there's a bit of leisure about it - you can give your full thoughts on someone's work at 9 am or 4 pm or in the middle of the night - there's none of the forced I've-got-to-say-something-here-in-class-so-I'll-find-something-to-nitpick feeling I've gotten from some of the workshops I've been in, which is not so much damaging to the writer, I think, as annoying.

I'm still undecided on what I'll do about my MA or MFA, or where I'll do it.

[Michael K.]

Originally posted by Ghost
Agree, Michael. Not recommending the rankings so much as giving Jacen a list of programs. He seemed to be under the mistaken impression that there are a grand total of 12.

Tons.

[Michael K.]

Ok...a very very basic version is up....enjoy


www.michaelkoch.net

[Ghost]

Michael, read one of the stories. I guess we need to establish a protocol for comments, whether to do it on the thread, in a pm, or by the preference of the author.

Let me know your preference.I'm going to praise the story quite a bit, so no need to worry.

HOw did you set the site up? And what's a good online writer's group?

[irvine]

I have found that nothing kills a piece faster than a detailed outline. (Which is not to imply that it doesn't work for you, Jacen.) I sketch out the first few scenes, get to know the characters a bit, and figure out more or less how I want a piece to end, and then I start writing. More outlining than that is wasted effort for me because when (inevitably) other ideas present themselves in the course of the writing, I always go with them because they are coming out of the actual writing rather than the weird kind of hands-off imagining that outlining tends to be.

On MFA/MA programs: do not go by reputation. There is only one good way to choose a workshop or MFA/MA program, and that is to find out if the writers you admire teach in one and then apply to that one. If you decide to limit your geographical area, that's another story, but if your one pure desire is to find the place where you want to be, I think the only way is to find the place where the people you tend to emulate already are. Then you can go there, find out they're all pricks, and strike out on your own. Or you can go there, be mentored, and have your workshop stories immediately rise to the top of the slush piles because you can get a recommendation from (insert hot writer here). I say this as an ex-student in workshops run by Iowa Poetry Prize winners at the University of Denver, which did me not a damn bit of good because the instructors and I were just interested in different things.

On working on a piece for what appears to be too long: I wrote a story in 1993, spent the next eight years periodically going back to it, revising, tinkering, and putting it in the mail again so I could collect more rejection slips. This year it appears for the first time in a chapbook of my short fiction, and it's the editor's favorite story. I don't know what lesson anyone should take from that, but I thought I'd mention it.

Michael K.: Max Frisch and Musil are both freaking great. Glad to hear someone mention them, especially Frisch.

Apologies for verbosity. I gave a reading tonight and am radiating excess energy, I guess.

Alex

Originally posted by Jacen McCullough

I get the same way with overwriting sometimes. The best thing to do is to get a VERY detailed outline in place before you start to write the piece. I used to just start writing with a vague idea of what I wanted to do, and, inevitably, I'd come up with something different and "better" halfway through.

[Jacen McCullough]

On workshopping, I agree that the art of deciding what and who to listen to is VERY important. For example, I had a creative writing class last semester where I didn't care what the prof said. I didn't like his suggestions, and I thought his revision ideas made my work weaker. There were 2 other students in the class however that always gave great insights and ideas on what they reviewed. That's why I like workshopping (and set up the mailing list, even though it still only has 2 people hint hint:)), most of the feedback will likely not be all that helpful, but when you find one or two people in that group that consistantly give strong ideas and feedback, it can be extremely beneficial.

On creative writing programs, I need to stay in the area I'm in now. In those confines, I can then select the program I'm most comfortable with (a combination of affordability, acceptance and program itself). Ideally, I'd like to stay in Maryland, for family reasons. If anyone finds a link to any lists for CW graduate programs, please pass it along here!

JMac

[Jacen McCullough]

For smaller pieces, I'd agree (and I have a story I've been working on for years too), but for larger works, I'd get so frustrated without my outlines. If I got through 10 chapters of a 20 chapter work and suddenly found an idea that seemed to work better, I'd get so ticked off re-writing the entire 1st half of the book to incorporate the new idea. With an outline (a result of literally months of free-writing, character research and dialogue practice (something I do where I write at least 10 pages of straight dialogue in each character's voice in order to get the feel of how a character will talk)) I know there won't be as many surprises mid-writing so that I can concentrate on the direction I want the characters to go. It also allows me to skip ahead if a particular chapter is giving me fits. I know this isn't the best way for some writers, but I'd be lost without my outlines.

JMac


Originally posted by irvine
I have found that nothing kills a piece faster than a detailed outline. (Which is not to imply that it doesn't work for you, Jacen.) I sketch out the first few scenes, get to know the characters a bit, and figure out more or less how I want a piece to end, and then I start writing. More outlining than that is wasted effort for me because when (inevitably) other ideas present themselves in the course of the writing, I always go with them because they are coming out of the actual writing rather than the weird kind of hands-off imagining that outlining tends to be.

On MFA/MA programs: do not go by reputation. There is only one good way to choose a workshop or MFA/MA program, and that is to find out if the writers you admire teach in one and then apply to that one. If you decide to limit your geographical area, that's another story, but if your one pure desire is to find the place where you want to be, I think the only way is to find the place where the people you tend to emulate already are. Then you can go there, find out they're all pricks, and strike out on your own. Or you can go there, be mentored, and have your workshop stories immediately rise to the top of the slush piles because you can get a recommendation from (insert hot writer here). I say this as an ex-student in workshops run by Iowa Poetry Prize winners at the University of Denver, which did me not a damn bit of good because the instructors and I were just interested in different things.

On working on a piece for what appears to be too long: I wrote a story in 1993, spent the next eight years periodically going back to it, revising, tinkering, and putting it in the mail again so I could collect more rejection slips. This year it appears for the first time in a chapbook of my short fiction, and it's the editor's favorite story. I don't know what lesson anyone should take from that, but I thought I'd mention it.

Michael K.: Max Frisch and Musil are both freaking great. Glad to hear someone mention them, especially Frisch.

Apologies for verbosity. I gave a reading tonight and am radiating excess energy, I guess.

Alex

[Aimer, Northend Diva]

well EXCUSE ME that some of you seem to think my writing is sooooo bad. It can't possibly be worse than Jewel's f'd up poetry.

FYI, I wrote for 2 college newspapers, took several writing classes and wrote for 3 newspapers (2 daily, 1 weekly) after college!

[Footix]

Originally posted by Aimer, Northend Diva
well EXCUSE ME that some of you seem to think my writing is sooooo bad. It can't possibly be worse than Jewel's f'd up poetry.


What are you talking about? I don't see a single reaction to your first post on this thread.

[irvine]

Just being a diva, I think. Nobody said anything so s/he assumes we're all hateful snobs.

Jewel is a terrible poet, that's certainly true.

[skipshady]

Originally posted by irvine
Just being a diva, I think. Nobody said anything so s/he assumes we're all hateful snobs.

Jewel is a terrible poet, that's certainly true. There was an interview on MTV where Jewel got all pissy because Kurt Loder pointed out to her that "casualty" is not the noun form of "casual". Classic.

Re: Aimer's livejournal
I haven't read it so I have nothing to say about it. But I'm sure it's creative.

[fiddlestick]

Originally posted by Footix


What are you talking about? I don't see a single reaction to your first post on this thread.

Afraid Jmac and I have to take "credit" for that, though why someone felt the need to displace their anger across thread and forum, I haven't a clue.
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=106175#post106175

[Footix]

Originally posted by Aimer, Northend Diva on the thread quoted above
whatever, kiss my freaking ass. you dickmilk chugger.

Now that's funny, and qualifies as great comedy writing in my book. I'm not sure of you guys' history with her, and I'm not sure I want to know, but "dickmilk chugger" is pure gold.

[skipshady]

Originally posted by Footix
but "dickmilk chugger" is pure gold. That's some writing I can get into!

[Bonnie Lass]

I, personally, have always steered clear of many writing classes and get togethers, etc. because of the overwhelming sense of arrogance that so many writers have, or at least the ones I've encountered.

Much like I did in drama. Or art, when I was majoring in it back at college.

[Jacen McCullough]

Originally posted by Footix


Now that's funny, and qualifies as great comedy writing in my book. I'm not sure of you guys' history with her, and I'm not sure I want to know, but "dickmilk chugger" is pure gold.


Yeah, that's mostly my fault for her coming back. It was in a thread on free for all where she was getting slammed for being a shameful self-promoter, so I mentioned her comment earlier in this thread over there. I have no history with her, it was all part of the gag going on in that thread. She apparently took it all too seriously.

JMac