HOU:PAU CONCACAF Cup (4/5/07) [R]

[Ref Flunkie]

Anyone watch the game last night? The referee was (your friend and mine!) Navarro (CAN). A few talking points.

1. Awarded Pachuca two penalties. The first one was a clear penalty, the second one was debatable as there was little contact and it was basically at the endline/PA line intersection point.

2. The old "when does the half end" came into play. Game goes into extra time, there is to be no stoppage time in the first half. Pachuca has the ball probably 15 yards in from midfield when the clock hits 15:00. Navarro raises the whistle to his lips to blow the end of the first half, but then pulls it out as a Pachuca player moves in another 5-10 yards and blasts a shot which hits upper corner for the eventual game winner. Shot was taken probably around 15:15-15:20. Houston was asking why the whistle wasn't blown.

3. Dominic Kinnear was doing his usual childlike behavior during the match. Every time you saw him we was shouting at Navarro and I think he almost got into a fight with a Pachuca player or coach. How this guy keeps his job is beyond me. (Wasn't he the one that RAN after Prus last year to berate him after a match?)

Overall I think Navarro missed a lot (both ways). However, it was on par with his standard match, from what I have seen. Just curious if anyone else caught the match.

[superdave]

Pachuca's first goal was offside too.

[Ref Flunkie]

Pachuca's first goal was offside too.

It was pretty close though, plus our angle was not right in line with the players.

[vabeacher]

When I saw the first goal live, I thought it was a good goal, but on the replay it clearly looked offside. The scorer made a great run on the initial kick, but once the ball was flicked on by a Pachuca player, he was in an offside positions.

[vabeacher]

2. The old "when does the half end" came into play. Game goes into extra time, there is to be no stoppage time in the first half. Pachuca has the ball probably 15 yards in from midfield when the clock hits 15:00. Navarro raises the whistle to his lips to blow the end of the first half, but then pulls it out as a Pachuca player moves in another 5-10 yards and blasts a shot which hits upper corner for the eventual game winner. Shot was taken probably around 15:15-15:20. Houston was asking why the whistle wasn't blown.



I think Navarro's mistake was putting the whistle into his mouth a bit early, there must have been about 10 seconds left on the clock when he put the whistle in his mouth. This clearly communicated that he had no intention to add any time. Then when Pachuca quickly moved into an attacking position, he decided to let it play out. I don't know what the protocol is for announcing stoppage time at the end of the first half of the 30 minute overtime, but I'm sure Navarro could say he adds time in 15 second increments and come up with a reason why he went past the 15 minute mark.

Kinnear really should know that this is not an argument which will get him anywhere. From the time players are 5 years old they are told that the referee keeps the official time.

[loghyr]

When I saw the first goal live, I thought it was a good goal, but on the replay it clearly looked offside. The scorer made a great run on the initial kick, but once the ball was flicked on by a Pachuca player, he was in an offside positions.

I thought it was offside seeing it live.

On the first set of replays, I started questioning that.

Eventually they got a good angle which confirmed it was offside.

[loghyr]

I don't know what the protocol is for announcing stoppage time at the end of the first half of the 30 minute overtime, but I'm sure Navarro could say he adds time in 15 second increments and come up with a reason why he went past the 15 minute mark.

The announcers stated that the 4th official had put up the sign with 0 minutes added.

Really, the Houston defenders weren't playing him tight enough. That shot should never have went off. It was a beauty.

[loghyr]

3. Dominic Kinnear was doing his usual childlike behavior during the match. Every time you saw him we was shouting at Navarro and I think he almost got into a fight with a Pachuca player or coach. How this guy keeps his job is beyond me. (Wasn't he the one that RAN after Prus last year to berate him after a match?

It was the Pachuca goalie and I thought the goalie started it.

I was amazed that the goalie didn't get carded for it, especially after Navarro gave the Houston goalie a card for wasting time. (Which he was doing.)

[USSF REF]

At about the 71st minute Navaro called a foul, but the contact which made it a foul was committed entirely off the field of play. Navaro spotted the foul on the pitch instead... he wasn't exactly close, so I don't blame him, but we all know that you cannot commit a foul off the field of play!

Of course, I could be wrong about this, but it seemed very clear to me that this was the case.

Otherwise, there were a lot of whistles in the match. Still, I credit both teams with an amazing second half and 1st Extra Time. WOW. That was fun to watch, and the referee let it play out. Perhaps with a few too many stoppages for my taste, I'm sure others would disagree though.

What did you all think of the 1st caution of the game to the keeper for Houston for Delaying the restart of play?

[vabeacher]

I remember the "foul" off the field of play, with the DFK restart on the field. It was clearly a foul and clearly off the field of play. I guess the only other option Navarro had was to hand out a card for a misconduct. He most likely thought the fouls was not worthy of a card, and just called it as if the initial contact occured on the field of play and momentum carried both players off the field

[billf]

This was the first time I saw Navarro where I wasn't scratching my head the entire match, just every 15 minutes. The second pk was questionable and the end of the first 15 minutes was the kind of thing that's inexcusable for a grade six let alone a Fifa. He caused his own problem there and I'm sure he knows it. Ching also fouled the Pachuca player on the way to creating the first Houston goal. It just demonstrates again what a shallow pool of referees exist in CONCACAF.

He's worked MLS games along with the guy who did DC's first leg. I don't get this. When you work in the country's league, how is that any more neutral than having a US or Mexican referee?

[Ref Flunkie]

This was the first time I saw Navarro where I wasn't scratching my head the entire match, just every 15 minutes. The second pk was questionable and the end of the first 15 minutes was the kind of thing that's inexcusable for a grade six let alone a Fifa. He caused his own problem there and I'm sure he knows it. Ching also fouled the Pachuca player on the way to creating the first Houston goal. It just demonstrates again what a shallow pool of referees exist in CONCACAF.

He's worked MLS games along with the guy who did DC's first leg. I don't get this. When you work in the country's league, how is that any more neutral than having a US or Mexican referee?

Wait wait, are you talking about where Ching came in behind the Pachuca player along the touch line? IMO this was a major dive on the Pachuca players part and was a great no call. They were diving quite a bit and I thought, most of the time, Navarro did not fall for it. I'm with you on the whistle in the mouth thing...if it goes in, you better blow it.

[loghyr]

Wait wait, are you talking about where Ching came in behind the Pachuca player along the touch line? IMO this was a major dive on the Pachuca players part and was a great no call.

But the ball was clearly over the line as well.

I thought they missed quite a few of those types of calls.

In the end, I thought the calls went as equally against both teams as possible. I wanted Houston to win (getting 2 away goals was a major accomplishment and should have been rewarded), but I couldn't blame Navarro (and his ARs) for the loss.

[Ref Flunkie]

But the ball was clearly over the line as well.

I thought they missed quite a few of those types of calls.

In the end, I thought the calls went as equally against both teams as possible. I wanted Houston to win (getting 2 away goals was a major accomplishment and should have been rewarded), but I couldn't blame Navarro (and his ARs) for the loss.

Now THAT may be true, but I don't think it was a foul. No way the AR can see that with the body of the player laying on the line...he had to make his best guess. I agree the "missed" calls went both ways...it does kinda stink that they don't reward for the away goals in this competition.

[loghyr]

I thought the player slipped - not a foul.

[Spaceball]

The announcers stated that the 4th official had put up the sign with 0 minutes added.

Remember, that means only that AT LEAST 0 minutes should be added. If Navarro wants to add 30 seconds he cannot show a 1 or that means at least 1 must be added. Anywhere between 0-59 seconds is appropriate (or more if in that stoppage time he felt there was significant delay that warranted more time).

Saying that, it sounds like he screwed up with his mechanics which I can't comment on...forgot to DVR the match and now I need to find a replay!

[superdave]

But the ball was clearly over the line as well.
I rewatched the controversial parts of the game. The ball was clearly NOT over the line. There was maybe an inch of grass between the line and the ball, but the line extends upward. Think of it this way...if the ball had been 4 feet off the ground, you would plainly see that the inner edge of the ball was above the line, and called it in. Just because the ball is on the ground doesn't negate that.

Unless it does, in which case I sound kinda stupid. :D But in all seriousness, a while back I asked this question about a ball that hit the underside of the bar and came down, there was a tiny spot of green, but the edge of the ball was clearly over the line, and I was told that's no goal.

[Alberto]

The second penalty was not a foul. There appeared to be no contact and the Pachuca player dived brilliantly.

Another typical match for Navarro. All too typical.

I would like to note that the Panamanian referee that did the Chivas DC United match was extremely fair. He had excellent foul recognition. My only quibble was that he could and should have issued more cautions based on how both teams played. This is a referee with tremendous upside.

Sorry, but I can't find an article listing his name.

[Chubbywubby]

Roberto Moreno.

http://dcunited.mlsnet.com/news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20070403&content_id=87149&vkey=news_dcu&fext=.jsp&team=t103

[billf]

Wait wait, are you talking about where Ching came in behind the Pachuca player along the touch line? IMO this was a major dive on the Pachuca players part and was a great no call. They were diving quite a bit and I thought, most of the time, Navarro did not fall for it. I'm with you on the whistle in the mouth thing...if it goes in, you better blow it.

He shoved him down but I'll accept that the ease with which players went down probably gave Ching the benefit of doubt.