Maybe there is something u can learn from US...

[alexspepa]

OK...I hope this does not get out of control, but after watching the last few CL and UEFA matches - there is no way this type of fan and police behavior would be tolerated in the US.

The Philadephia Eagles fans probably have the worst rep in the country as to treating away fans; and that means that you might have a beer poured on your back, or your mother might be insulted. Very, very occaisionaly you will have an incident like the Ron Artest NBA situation, and in that case he was suspended for the rest of the season, and fans were arrested and privaleges revoked.

I attend Carolina Panthers games frequently, and opposing fans are mixed in with Carolina fans with NO problems other than friendly verbal sparring. At the end of the game, I have frequently gone up to opposing fans and shook their hands, and wished them well on the ride home.

IT's A GAME!!!

Passion is wonderful; it's what makes the EPL the best league in the world, but at the end - it is still just a game.

I don't mean this as an attack on English fans...you have conquered your problems for the most part; but you still have to segregate your opposing fans, correct? I mean, if I was fortunate to obtain a ticket to a Spurs match in an away stadium, I could not cheer out loud if I was in the opposing section, is that correct? Something wrong there...and please - I did not vote for Bush, so don't go there.:)

COYS!

[encierroNYC]

Clubs are sprouting up in the UK and they play American Football. Their adverts to attract spectators say, "Finally, a game that you can bring your family to."

Soccer has too many 'tribal' histories playing into it. It's not like in America where you can bring your kiddies for a hot dog and pretzels on a lazy Sunday summer afternoon.

If they want to reduce violence, they are going to have make a concerted effort to thwart a certain culture. Creating a bunker/siege mentality won't solve matters.

[mattie g]

The Philadephia Eagles fans probably have the worst rep in the country as to treating away fans; and that means that you might have a beer poured on your back, or your mother might be insulted. Very, very occaisionaly you will have an incident like the Ron Artest NBA situation, and in that case he was suspended for the rest of the season, and fans were arrested and privaleges revoked.


Firstly, as I think many Spurs fans across the Pond have mentioned before, these problems are only happening during European games - not games in the UK. You have to ask why that is.

Secondly, and less importantly, as a Philly fan, I can tell you that a lot worse could, and sometimes would, happen to Cowboys or Giants (and sometimes other) fans at The Vet. They brought in Judge Seamus* for a reason. Sorry for the off-topic blurb ;)

*for background, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seamus_McCaffrey

[alexspepa]

I want to emphasize...this thread is not meant to denegrate UK fans - I am speaking mainly about European matches.

However...the concept of completely separating opposing fan bases is a little different than we are used to. We sell blocks of seats to opposing fans, but we do not restrict seating based on allegeance(s?).

To play devil's advocate with myself - I know of no sporting event in the US that rivals an EPL event for passion, unless it might be a Duke-UNC basketball game at Cameron (and I am not a supporter of either team). So maybe the intensity comes with the whole package?

[C O S W A Y]

To play devil's advocate with myself - I know of no sporting event in the US that rivals an EPL event for passion, unless it might be a Duke-UNC basketball game at Cameron (and I am not a supporter of either team). So maybe the intensity comes with the whole package?
a little off topic, but that hit a nerve being from Boston...
dont forget about red sox / yankees when you talk about american sports passion. heres a good clip of when a member of RSN goes to yankee stadium, something i've (bravely) done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwBa3XA3Sl4
the same will happen at the bleachers in fenway

[alexspepa]

a little off topic, but that hit a nerve being from Boston...
dont forget about red sox / yankees when you talk about american sports passion. heres a good clip of when a member of RSN goes to yankee stadium, something i've (bravely) done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwBa3XA3Sl4
the same will happen at the bleachers in fenway

absolutely fantastic footage - and it proves my point absolutely as well.

this guy climbs through an entire section of opposing fans and is enundated with chants of "asshole...asshole...asshole". Buit that is it; no threat of violence, no bottles, no fences...and this is one of the most intense rivalrys in America.

[Malkamus]

here is my American observation -- American sports lack a couple components European football matches lack:

*ratio of Men to Women at the matches -- WAGS won't put up with that crap and if you watch most American sports, the number of women in the crowds runs at least 35-40% if not parity. You watch European football and at best you'll see 15-20% female in the stands. This is the most important difference IMO.

*An often sectarian edge to the game.

*no crowd segregation -- you might have less violence if you have to sit next to the human you want to beat. And, yeah there is very little violence at english stadiums anymore but my understanding is its just moved off the grounds to before and after the match.

*most security is private and unarmed -- the presence of riot police at a match with helmets and sheilds is in and of itself a provocation -- the police are the problem not the solution -- stewards and not riot police are a big reason english games are much better than what they were. American sports pay their own liability insurance -- crap fans cost them money.

*At american sports alcohol comsumption is encouraged and allowed in the stands and often sold in the stands so you don't have to get tanked up before hand -- ala the reduction in violence on high streets after england allowed bars to stay open past 3 in the afternoon or whatever ridiculous hour it was before.

*a relatively free labor market -- in hellholes like Spain and Italy you have a permanent 15-25% of the younger population un or under employed -- but because of the welfare state they are not allowed to starve to death -- you have nothing to live for, but just enough to get drunk and fed -- why not riot? Upward mobility or at least the concept/dream/belief of upward mobility makes sure Americans are much more violent but prefer to kill/assault people in the privacy of our own homes and on our own local streets than at a Raiders game. :D

Another personal observation -- when I was younger and radical I participated in 4-5 political riots in America and Canada -- in every case the police made things worse -- they either arrested/charged/beat the folks not committing property crimes, committed more property crimes than us anarchists or infiltrated the riot to the degree every 3rd anarchist was an undercover cop breaking a Starbucks window to prove he wasn't a cop then later slapping us in cuffs or running back to the police line. Cops are the problem not the solution, like a London bus they are never there when you need them and when they show up its generally in 3s.

Cheers,
Malk

[Danners9]

You have to segregate the fans because of the numbers involved.

Imagine what would have happened to several groups of 10 or 20 Spurs fans all around the ground when they scored in the first minute? Scared to cheer, attacked if they did, maybe, it would ruin it for everyone. Plus, with the way away trips are organised they need to keep everyone in the same place - it allowed them to be counted, to be put collected in the same place before the game and taken away as a group afterwards.

The problem seems to be that police don't treat them with respect and instead herd them around like animals, if you are friendly with someone they will most likely be friendly back but if you threaten to hit them then everyone will be annoyed and only one small incident is needed to spark a riot. Fans are fed up of being treated like this away from home.

That sort of thing does happen here too, in big derby games the fans are escorted from the train stations or the coach parks to their section of the ground but what happens?? the other team fans line the streets to throw things at them!! Small groups of people congregating in bars is not a problem, large groups of people herded around creates a massive problem. It creates tension and sets them aside as being trouble even if they are not.

Now obviously not everyone is innocent but not everyone is guilty either. Yet they are all treated the same, they are all treated like criminals regardless of what they have done or not done.

The problem, for me, is that the police are to eager to dish out the beatings and not actually 'police' the situation. Beating someone up is going to cause others to defend him and then get beaten up themselves. That's how travelling abroad works, you are a small number - relatively - so regardless of whether you KNOW the people they become your friends for the day.

The Roma game, why no policing on the Roma fans side of the fence? Police both sides and no rioting takes place because no one can charge. Instead, police one side and the other lot get away with it. Equal treatment would cause a lot of the victim/siege mentality to disappear, but as it is 'we' - as a Brit who likes to travel - feel in fear for our lives should we happen to be caught with a beer in hand and speaking in English under the banner of football. Why? Because we're english football fans and therefore must be out for a fight.

The reputation from the 80s goes before us but look across europe to domestic games, how many in-stadium incidents are there in the English or Scottish leagues? Very few. Look to Italy, to France, to Holland, Turkey, Croatia, Poland. I can guarantee you that in at least 1 game in the top league of these countries per week there will be a crowd issue. Guarantee it. It's because the stadiums here are very good quality, the security is tight and the stewarding is very thorough. Can the same be said of everywhere else? Probably not, and THAT is a major problem.

[Spur_Forever]

Firstly, as I think many Spurs fans across the Pond have mentioned before, these problems are only happening during European games - not games in the UK. You have to ask why that is.
I think this the key here. There hasn't been fan violence at the Lane (at least not of this kind) for God knows how long. And though I don't follow Utd, I think I would have heard about it if there had been violence at Old Trafford as well.

So this is specific to European games and I agree with those who said this has a lot to do with the stigma of English fans in Europe and the overreaction of the police. One thing about English fans is that they will not be bullied and will not stand for unfairness. They will also have a few pints before the game. I think their demeanor can be very confrontational and police can easily misinterpret the situation.

The club needs to pursue this till the end with UEFA, because some of the images I've seen are just unacceptable. I've also heard that a Spurs fan in a wheelchair was being beaten. I mean unless he had a couple of molotof cocktails stowed under his chair, what possible threat could he have posed? If I were him I'd file a civil suit against the city.

[cdmphy]

There was NO effing fan-to-fan problems last night.


And you want a stupid YouTube clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQP6yehL284

that is a picture of English fans with their hands up, clearly not threatening, getting beaten by Fascist Spanish police. What can we learn from this?

[Danners9]

I've also heard that a Spurs fan in a wheelchair was being beaten. I mean unless he had a couple of molotof cocktails stowed under his chair, what possible threat could he have posed? If I were him I'd file a civil suit against the city.

The Sun, Mirror and Radio FiveLive have contacted the Supporters Trust and the club to find out who he is and get an interview with him. BBC's Football Focus are going to as well. He is more than happy to talk and we'll probably be seeing him in the papers tomorrow or soon anyway.

[OrlandoSPUR]

I want to emphasize...this thread is not meant to denegrate UK fans - I am speaking mainly about European matches.

...the policing in places like Spain and Italy are substandard, in England we have sorted out our problems, have stewards as the main form of crowd control, as intimidating tactics by police heighten tension.

However...the concept of completely separating opposing fan bases is a little different than we are used to. We sell blocks of seats to opposing fans, but we do not restrict seating based on allegeance(s?).

You also don't get 4000 away fans coming to a game in your pro sports, so its a pointless point, if you look at College football the fans have a designated away section. In the case of the game last night, they had no stewards, no police between Tottenham and Seville fans, there was no trouble between the two sets of fans, the problems came when the riot police decided to come and show how big their dick's were.

[Shelfsider]

the problems came when the riot police decided to come and show how big their dick's were.

And the Spurs fans laughed.

So they were asking for trouble. You know how sensitive these "macho" latin types can be.

;)

[OrlandoSPUR]

And the Spurs fans laughed.

So they were asking for trouble. You know how sensitive these "macho" latin types can be.

;)

...i know i work with a bunch of them mate.:D

[DigitalTron]

There was NO effing fan-to-fan problems last night.


And you want a stupid YouTube clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQP6yehL284

that is a picture of English fans with their hands up, clearly not threatening, getting beaten by Fascist Spanish police. What can we learn from this?

Wow, that's exactly what it looks like. The Spurs supporters with their hands up and the helment-shield-and-armor-clad Sevilla Police just deciding to beat the hell out of the Spurs supporters with billy clubs. I dunno what the Sevilla Police were hoping to accomplish, my guess would be that they wanted the Spurs fans to clear the walkway ... but to start beating them over the head with a club when they're non-threateningly holding their hands up ... that's surely NOT the way to do it. I wonder if the EU can take action against those police, because that surely cannot be tolerated.

I hope all the Sevilla fans saw that clip.

-Digital

[BayernWake]

I don't mean this as an attack on English fans...you have conquered your problems for the most part; but you still have to segregate your opposing fans, correct? I mean, if I was fortunate to obtain a ticket to a Spurs match in an away stadium, I could not cheer out loud if I was in the opposing section, is that correct? Something wrong there...and please - I did not vote for Bush, so don't go there.:)

I don't quite understand the point you're making. "You still have to segragate your fans"? What are you saying, that Euro clubs separate their fans in order to prevent altercations? That couldn't be further from the truth. Is it so weird to imagine that a clubs' supporters would want to sit with their fellow fans? Why would you want to sit with opposing fans?

As someone else mentioned, look at any US college football stadium. Away teams more often than not have their own fan sections.

[denver_mugwamp]

I think the difference between European and US sports involves alcohol. Soccer in Europe is primarily a drinking culture. Whereas in the US, with our Puritan hertitage, we tend to consider alcohol to be a demon that has to be tightly regulated and controlled. Although this makes for some rather hyopcritical crap, such as the 21 drinking age and closing liquor stores on Sundays, it also makes it much less socially acceptable to be drunk in public.
Not being able to "hold your liquor" is a major transgression and John Wayne punched out many a guy on screen for it.

Come to think about it, most of the people drive to US sporting events, whereas Europeans are more likely to take public transportation. Even though drunk driving enforcement has been stepped up on both sides of the Atlantic, it would cause more problems in America and thus people here tend to watch their consumption a bit more.

In amy event, alchohol is the catalyst that makes a group of sports fans into a mob.

[Solo Sevilla]

are you ********ing kidding me? The passion felt in the US for sports comes NO WAY NEAR that felt in Europe for football. The yankees vs. the red sox? It's more like alot of drunk college kids (who never follow these teams, unless they're playing their rivals) trying to act cool by yelling stuff like: assholes..

I've spoken to many Americans in Europe, and they say when they go to football matches in Europe they admit it's completely at another level of passion.

[Danners9]

In amy event, alchohol is the catalyst that makes a group of sports fans into a mob.

That's such a simplistic view of things. As if you make everyone sober and there is no trouble, which isn't the case at all. Puritan heritage too, that made me laugh.

The issue here is the difference in standards between european police forces and european stadiums. Here we have all-seater stadiums, police without riot gear, the club's own stewards who talk to people first. There, it seems they have a mix of old and new seating, which is often dangerous, police that look like Darth Vader's Stormtroopers with weapons and they aren't interested or able to speak to English fans. So they beat them.

Whether the fans have had a drink becomes irrelevant because once you place weapons in the hands of the law and encourage them to police through violence - after the event, instead of preventing the trouble through proper security - you have a them vs us mentality in the crowd.

The Metropolitan Police sent representatives over last night and they were ignored by the Spanish police, Spurs sent their own stewards over and they were beaten by the Spanish police.

Were the stewards drunk? no, of course not. So why did they get hit? causing trouble? No. Preventing trouble? yes. Hit? why? No idea. That is the problem. Having a beer doesn't make you an animal, being fenced in and hit with sticks for no reason makes you angry and eventually you will snap. Might as well be hit for doing something than for doing nothing, right? Maybe. Protecting yourself = being beaten. Saving others = being beaten.

Proper security and a police force that isn't looking for a fight prevents all this. The Roma game, you police both sides of the fence and then no one can charge. You don't police one side and then react to the events!!

Notice how the trouble in Seville only started when the police showed up and it stopped when they disappeared. Those same fans, maybe a few with alcohol inside them, were peaceful before and after so what changed? Police influence.

[Shelfsider]

I think the difference between European and US sports involves alcohol. Soccer in Europe is primarily a drinking culture. Whereas in the US, with our Puritan hertitage, we tend to consider alcohol to be a demon that has to be tightly regulated and controlled. Although this makes for some rather hyopcritical crap, such as the 21 drinking age and closing liquor stores on Sundays, it also makes it much less socially acceptable to be drunk in public.
Not being able to "hold your liquor" is a major transgression and John Wayne punched out many a guy on screen for it.

Come to think about it, most of the people drive to US sporting events, whereas Europeans are more likely to take public transportation. Even though drunk driving enforcement has been stepped up on both sides of the Atlantic, it would cause more problems in America and thus people here tend to watch their consumption a bit more.

In amy event, alchohol is the catalyst that makes a group of sports fans into a mob.

Mate, I can't pretend that I've been to anything like as many major sports events in the US as you. But I've been to a few and I can't believe that you've written what you've written.

Have you never heard of tailgating? Goes on at every American sports event. Thousands of people, out by their cars and pick-ups, necking every drop of alchohol they can get their hands on. Many of the people involved get fall down drunk. Furthermore, at most US sports events, there is drinking throughout the game.

This is especially true of college sports.

Alchohol and US sports do not go hand in hand? Who are you trying to kid?