My first year coaching thread

[blech]

Originally posted by Coryattheplex


No way the 3-5-2 hasn't revolutionized the game in my opinion,


I don't know whether i agree or not about it being revolutionary, but i do wish that it might have been around back when I was playing competitively.

I'm still somewhat of a cynic. If I can ask, how old are your players, Cory, and what is the level of play. My impression, again, is that it is a sophisticated formation, which requires a lot of communication and understanding (of the game and of teammates). At younger levels, I'd have some hesitation to send an offensively talented player out to the outside mid, simply because it might take him/her out of the game. At higher levels, you could have the expectation that you're talking about of your centermids distributing wide, but you still can have huge periods when they get lost. Thinking of the top levels, do you want Landon playing on the outside, or do you want him in the middle? Or as another example of recent note, what about David Beckham? Also, it sounds like there is a large expectation on them to track back on defense, which may or may not be counterproductive under some circumstances. Seems to me that this position for this player remains as the attacking center mid.

All of this, however, is just asking questions. As I noted in my earlier post, it seems like the 3-5-2 is an ordinary progression of formation. As teams shifted from the 4-3-3 to the 4-4-2, it became less and less necessary to hold back 4 defenders. If the outside defenders pinch in and pick up the 2 forwards, the "stopper" is now free to move up further into the midfield, even though his primary responsibility may remain defensive. Rather than move on top of the previous center mid, they shift over to make room for each other (and now we have two central defensive mids). Of course, the more midfielders we get, the less actual commitment we have to positions and the more opportunity for players to become more fluid, to move to whereever they can provide support, and then all of a sudden we flashback to Holland, Total Soccer, and the '70s, which simply arrived a few decades before its time.

I can definitely see how the 3-5-2 works when the other side is also in a 3-5-2 or in a 4-4-2, but how does it work and what kind of adjustments do you make defensively if the opposing team is in the 4-3-3?

[blech]

Originally posted by pething101
Six kids showed up. Those six are going to be the heart of this team.

6 kids for a 7 am practice. that has to be a little depressing. also leaves you with little room for discipline, since you have to play the others if you're going to field a team.

of course, all you can do is keep working with the ones who are there (and keep encouraging the others to show). hang in there.

[thacharger]

The best drill as a player I have ever done is this:

You have 2v2 or 3v3 or 4v4 inside a square. You have 4 "neutrals" on the outsides of the square. You limit it two touches. Players try to play the ball back and forth and use the nuetrals when they are in trouble. The nuetrals have one touch. Does wonders for ball movement skills.

[Coryattheplex]

Originally posted by blech
At higher levels, you could have the expectation that you're talking about of your centermids distributing wide, but you still can have huge periods when they get lost. Thinking of the top levels, do you want Landon playing on the outside, or do you want him in the middle? Or as another example of recent note, what about David Beckham?

[Coryattheplex]

Originally posted by blech
At higher levels, you could have the expectation that you're talking about of your centermids distributing wide, but you still can have huge periods when they get lost. Thinking of the top levels, do you want Landon playing on the outside, or do you want him in the middle? Or as another example of recent note, what about David Beckham?
My boys are High School players, and i hate to tell you this but I taught thirteen year old girls to play this system this past summer. The only thing it demands of the rest of the team is the commitment to their roles, and the discipline to not deviate from them. It is just as you've said, I have moved the most talented playmalkers to the outside where I feel they have a better chance of utilizing the space and time, as well as finding the support players who now have time to make interesting runs, since they are no longer responsible for winning the ball and trying to carry it forward......amazing the passing angles the wide play creates. Even more amazing is having someone wide who can complete a pinpoint pass that finishes one of these movements. Oh, and by the way, David Beckham makes his living for my beloved ManU on the outside right for this very reason.

[whip]

Ball control: this have to be at least 25 per cent of your training for your whole team, Once this phase is accomplish and you are confortable with your team ball control you have to divide and find out who will fit every position on the field, from GOALIE TO CENTRAL STRIKER, your strikers need to be able to sprint at high speed withour loosing control of the soccer ball, YOUR MIDFIELDERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXECUTE LONG PRECISE PASSES AND COORDINATE ATTACK, on your last line, DEFENSE have to be able to coordinate speed and one more time SOCCER BALL CONTROL

[cpwilson80]

Originally posted by thacharger
The best drill as a player I have ever done is this:

You have 2v2 or 3v3 or 4v4 inside a square. You have 4 "neutrals" on the outsides of the square. You limit it two touches. Players try to play the ball back and forth and use the nuetrals when they are in trouble. The nuetrals have one touch. Does wonders for ball movement skills.

We did that all the time too (4v4) and it works wonders for both ball control, vision and decision making. Whenever I help coach, this is a staple of practice. Teams get a point for every 5-8 consecutive passes (Vary according to skill)

[jmeissen0]

Originally posted by whip
Ball control: this have to be at least 25 per cent of your training for your whole team, Once this phase is accomplish and you are confortable with your team ball control you have to divide and find out who will fit every position on the field, from GOALIE TO CENTRAL STRIKER, your strikers need to be able to sprint at high speed withour loosing control of the soccer ball, YOUR MIDFIELDERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXECUTE LONG PRECISE PASSES AND COORDINATE ATTACK, on your last line, DEFENSE have to be able to coordinate speed and one more time SOCCER BALL CONTROL

no offense dude, but if you want to emphasize something, please put it in bold type... it isn't annoying like caps are

bold:
[_b] word [_/b]

get rid of the underscore to make it work... if you still don't understand, click the quote button and see how they do it in the quote

-jim

[pething101]

No practice today. It was cancelled.

Rematch tomorrow against the school we played Thursday; I wont make it b/c I have a ILT orientaion from 8-4 and match is at 3 pm and about 40 miles away.

[bungadiri]

Originally posted by Coryattheplex

My boys are High School players, and i hate to tell you this but I taught thirteen year old girls to play this system this past summer. The only thing it demands of the rest of the team is the commitment to their roles, and the discipline to not deviate from them. It is just as you've said, I have moved the most talented playmalkers to the outside where I feel they have a better chance of utilizing the space and time, as well as finding the support players who now have time to make interesting runs, since they are no longer responsible for winning the ball and trying to carry it forward......amazing the passing angles the wide play creates. Even more amazing is having someone wide who can complete a pinpoint pass that finishes one of these movements. Oh, and by the way, David Beckham makes his living for my beloved ManU on the outside right for this very reason.
Coryattheplex, that's a nice description of the 3-5-2.
After half the season, we eventually used the 3 5 2 with a U-12 rec team last season and we lost only one match, while beating several more talented teams and ultimately won our bracket with the same personnel that had finished low middle the previous season. One thing that helps young/inexperienced kids work with this formation is that it provides a lot of teachable moments: at the beginning we had a hard time getting the wings to stay wide, precisely because they were hungry and had been played centrally up to now. Once they, got the ball in the right place, however, they had a lot of room to make things happen and did so. It made for such a dramatic difference from the route 1 stuff that was the kids' natural tendency that they figured it out almost on their own.

Re: sweeper vs. flatback: Take this with a grain of salt, because I've only coached younger kids, but it seems to me that the flat four makes greater demands on the sophistication (or lack thereof), of players. You really need a leader telling them when to step up, they need to decide on the fly when to play cover and when to mark, etc. The sweeper system has a player dedicated to this, and it's a lot simpler, even if the guy isn't verbal back there, although that certainly helps.

[Richie]

I have not read all the posts. but formations don't win games. Players wins games, also coaches get to much credit for winning games. If your losing a new formation won't help you much.

Think of a formation as a starting point and that's it. Those positions can be there, but who takes them up can and should be anybody on the team, and not just one particular player. You don't want any players to be locked in one position on the field.

Because for example at times you might not need two true wings. If the ball is on one flank do you need a player over 60 yards away standling alone on the other flank.

Does your 3-5-2 look the same when you fall back on defense as it looks like on the attack on the middle third does it look the same in your attacking third? It can look like a 4-4-1-1 on defense in your defensive half of the field.

What you should try to have at all times is have
a forward, 2 angle and a back pass option. Closer you get to your attacking goal you can lose that forward option or it may come down to just a 2 foot forward option. That is why an inside combination game is needed at high levels of play. or your left with just horizontal square pass or the back pass to score. A long horizontal pass is a cross.

You are looking to attack space. if there is space and a flank player can move away from the flank to attack that space do you hold him to his flank position?

On wings getting lost. That can easily happen if they are locked into their wing position. Donovan used to get lost on the flank in the Olympics because he did not attack space and he stayed in that position when his space to play the ball became congested. Why, because his team mates would switch the field to play in more open space. So he was left without the ball because they played the ball away from him. He should have moved out of that position when he saw his space being taken away.

Always, remember skillful dangerous players attacking space wins games. Not formations and also coaches get to much credit for wins as well. It is all about the player. Coaches can lose games by not creating skillful players and not allowing players to create because it might cause them to lose the ball at times.

Richie

[Coryattheplex]

To Richie,

Those were very insightful words, but I resent the fact that you imply that a coach who works on formation is a glory hound. I give my boys, and the girls I coached this past summer all of the credit, because ulimately it was there hard work and creative play that made system work....I simply chose the system I thought would work best. That's all I have ever done tactically for a team, that and then teach them how best to use it. For you to gather that I want anything more out of this discussion thatn to find an even better way to teach the 3-5-2 is insulting.....have I once referred to MY accomplishments...no they are irrelevant.

As for you discussion of wing players getting lost by being locked in to a spot, mine are only tied into that position to the extent they must be able to make a recovery run to the middle to cover def mids who will likely have to shift outside if the ball is lost and countered on the wing they have just left. Other than that, if they see opportunities to find space elsewhere, they are encouraged to exploit it immediately, they are only requird to remember their responsabilities to defend.

[MLS Detroit]

I, too, will be coaching my first team after a mediocre playing career (an inner-city high school in Detroit). Fortunately, I have taught the game for several years as a physical education teacher, but I am prepared to expand my base of knowledge to successfully coach at the varsity high school level.

My one comment is this (and this goes for any sport, except cross country or track): don't make your kids run slow distance laps. Time can be more efficiently spent by having them run with a ball at their feet. Organize the drills so that fundamentals and fitness (both aerobic and anaerobic) are both accomplished at the same time; its more fun for everyone. Judging by the length of this thread, though, someone may have already made this point, but I still wanted to add it just in case it had not been mentioned.

Good luck!

[Richie]

"Those were very insightful words"

Thank you.

"but I resent the fact that you imply that a coach who works on formation is a glory hound."

I read my post again, and I can't find that I said that anywhere. I think I said formation does not win games. Good players win games. what I meant by that if your players can't play well in general changing formations won't matter much.

My post "Always, remember skillful dangerous players attacking space wins games. Not formations and also coaches get to much credit for wins as well. It is all about the player. Coaches can lose games by not creating skillful players and not allowing players to create because it might cause them to lose the ball at times."

That is exactly what I said and it is true.

"For you to gather that I want anything more out of this discussion thatn to find an even better way to teach the 3-5-2 is insulting"

I don't think I have read your post just made observations on formations in general. So don't be insulted.

"...have I once referred to MY accomplishments...no they are irrelevant."

As I said did not read your post, and did not feel the urge to back over the thread to read your post now. So don't worry it was not about you or what you wrote.

"As for you discussion of wing players getting lost by being locked in to a spot, mine are only tied into that position to the extent they must be able to make a recovery run to the middle to cover def mids who will likely have to shift outside if the ball is lost and countered on the wing they have just left. Other than that, if they see opportunities to find space elsewhere, they are encouraged to exploit it immediately, they are only requird to remember their responsabilities to defend."

A wing should be a 2 way player and a runner that doesn't mean fast, but fast is nice. When your team loses the ball they have to try and get behind the ball as do the rest of the team for that matter.

What about when a back does an overlap ball side. What does your far side wing mid do positionally when he sees that happen? Just curious on how you play.

Richie

[JohnW]

Originally posted by bungadiri


Re: sweeper vs. flatback: Take this with a grain of salt, because I've only coached younger kids, but it seems to me that the flat four makes greater demands on the sophistication (or lack thereof), of players. You really need a leader telling them when to step up, they need to decide on the fly when to play cover and when to mark, etc. The sweeper system has a player dedicated to this, and it's a lot simpler, even if the guy isn't verbal back there, although that certainly helps.

Generally agree.

At the practical level, the flat four can be used to make it more difficult for teams to play ball over the top (through balls also) as defenders are in a straight line. And, as such, can push up together, hold line, etc. without sweeper having to call an offside trap or step up.

A variation of the sweeper/stopper four player defense for a "less experienced" side is using the two outside backs as man markers.

I have seen (and coached) defenders who were able to compensate to a degree for lower ball skills by effectively marking a forward. A good forward will adjust but you'd be surprised that some mediocre forwards allow themselves to be marked out of a game.

jgw

[pething101]

This team needs to trim some fat, physically and mentally.

We have one or two players that are being rather malcontent and it is spreading to the other players. I am not happy at all.

[blech]

Originally posted by pething101
This team needs to trim some fat, physically and mentally.

We have one or two players that are being rather malcontent and it is spreading to the other players. I am not happy at all.

Looks like it is time for a pep talk.

Don't get me wrong. Reading many of your posts, this doesn't appear to be the best situation. But hang in there. Try to focus on the positive and what your reasons are for being a coach. I know that I always want to feel like I've positively impacted every player. But that's not always realistic. Some don't want it, and sometimes you just can't click with everyone. I'm not suggesting that you outwardly want to show favoritism or anything (you should keep working on those hard cases also), but maybe even in a bad situation there is room for a significant contribution to someone's soccer career, or life in general. As I think someone suggested in an earlier post, the assistant often gets to work with the goalie or with the defenders. Especially if you feel like the head coach is otherwise controlling too much (and diminishing your role), it can help to see if you can get a piece carved out for you to handle more on your own.

Hang in there.

[pething101]

Originally posted by pething101
No practice today. It was cancelled.

Rematch tomorrow against the school we played Thursday; I wont make it b/c I have a ILT orientaion from 8-4 and match is at 3 pm and about 40 miles away.

Rematch was cancelled last night. Coach felt that there was no way we were prepared for it.

[pething101]

Originally posted by MLS Detroit
I, too, will be coaching my first team after a mediocre playing career (an inner-city high school in Detroit). Fortunately, I have taught the game for several years as a physical education teacher, but I am prepared to expand my base of knowledge to successfully coach at the varsity high school level.

My one comment is this (and this goes for any sport, except cross country or track): don't make your kids run slow distance laps. Time can be more efficiently spent by having them run with a ball at their feet. Organize the drills so that fundamentals and fitness (both aerobic and anaerobic) are both accomplished at the same time; its more fun for everyone. Judging by the length of this thread, though, someone may have already made this point, but I still wanted to add it just in case it had not been mentioned.

Good luck!

Welcome to the thread, MLS. Feel free to offer tips or suggestions or observations, they are all apprecaited.

About the Cooper test, it was throughly slammed earlier in the thread. Those with much more experience than I, shared your opinions.

thanks

[Coryattheplex]

Originally posted by Richie
A wing should be a 2 way player and a runner that doesn't mean fast, but fast is nice. When your team loses the ball they have to try and get behind the ball as do the rest of the team for that matter.

What about when a back does an overlap ball side. What does your far side wing mid do positionally when he sees that happen? Just curious on how you play.

Richie

All rancor aside, lets discuss what we came here to discuss. I absolutely believe that in a mature offense and defense, your wing players had better be faster than average....including your backs.

As for one of my three backs making a run forward (remember i'm talkin the 3-5-2), it better not happen! In a traditional 4-4-2, with a flat back system, a left or right back has that freedom because he's always leaving three defenders behind who can shift over and adapt if the ball is lost and the other team counters. In my opinion, the backs in a 3 man system don't have this luxurey because they must retain their shape for the whole game......if i'm wrong it's okay to tell me....thats why i started the discussion of my defensive assignments with the 3-5-2 in the first place.....i'm hungry to learn! Now please do me one favor, don't speak out of conjecture on this. I need someone who has played or coached this system at a higher level than me to tell me what to look for.