How much back talk do you take?

[Rufusabc]

I know it depends on the age, and how they say it, but I did a u14 elite boys game today by myself, and I found myself on the receiving end of bitching and moaning on a few calls from one of the teams. It wasn't enough to warrant more than a talking to each time, but I couldn't believe the ability to work themselves into a frenzy about the way I was calling the game. It was an issue that effected every aspect of their game. They got beat badly, and the team that beat them didn't make a peep the whole game.

My question is: How much lip do YOU take?

R

[jacoismyhero]

When a finger to my lips doesn't work, I verbally acknowledge their behavior and explain to them that it's unacceptable. When this doesn't work, I begin to walk away from the confrontation. If they continue to follow me, then I book them.

While the first two steps (a gesture, and then a verbal discussion) generally work with 80-90% effectivity, there are still cases where it does escalate. As far as time goes, however, it generally only takes about 30 seconds of continuous dissent for a booking when I'm dealing with it.

This of course, pertains to simple, irate dissent... I move more rapidly or skip steps altogether when it comes to foul language or gestures, when things begin to escalate rapidly, or when it is directed at one of my ARs.

[jkc313]

I know it depends on the age, and how they say it, but I did a u14 elite boys game today by myself, and I found myself on the receiving end of bitching and moaning on a few calls from one of the teams. It wasn't enough to warrant more than a talking to each time, but I couldn't believe the ability to work themselves into a frenzy about the way I was calling the game. It was an issue that effected every aspect of their game. They got beat badly, and the team that beat them didn't make a peep the whole game.

My question is: How much lip do YOU take?

R
For just moaning and general bitching I simply wag my finger or tell them to stop. If I know the players I'm liable to say something along the lines of "Maybe you'd be doing better if you concentrated on the game and not complaining so much". I'm the first to admit, something like this can backfire on you but I have been refereeing in this area so long I know these kids/parents/coaches well. If they continue after a verbal warning I'm not above cautioning for dissent as needed.

[NHRef]

For me there's a couple of ways they can "cross the line":

- make it personal. As in moving from a comment on the call to a comment about me

- make it loud. Quieter it is the more they can get away with.

- when I've indicated that its enough, either verbally "that's enough" or "no more" etc, or visually by walking away

- My "line" gets crossed MUCH easier if its dissent towards my AR, ESPECIALLY if its a youth AR

[LoewenBoy]

All good advice. Ignoring, when appropriate, works too. They seem like poor losers trying to scapegoat the ref. Sounds like you did not let that happen. Good for you.

[IASocFan]

All good advice. Ignoring, when appropriate, works too. ...

Unfortunately, ignoring rarely seems to work for me. It just makes them louder. If I decide it's getting too frequent or too loud, I look sternly, give the enough sign and a verbal warning, and move to take a different position so they have to chase me to continue complaining to me.

[LoewenBoy]

Unfortunately, ignoring rarely seems to work for me. It just makes them louder. If I decide it's getting too frequent or too loud, I look sternly, give the enough sign and a verbal warning, and move to take a different position so they have to chase me to continue complaining to me.
I have found that responding politely to them in German works VERY, very well in quieting them down.:D Must be that "never question a European about football" thing. Of course, if they are Dutch or English you have just hightened the problem.;)

[intechpc]

First, I allow very little back talk. If it's a question I'll politely explain it if I can or tell them I'll explain later. If it's a comment about a call itself, I will usually ignore it. The minute I sense their behavior is having an effect on anyone else on the field (i.e. more players getting frustrated or starting to question calls) it's time for a verbal warning. Once they've been warned, in general their next action of true dissent earns them the caution.

Now if they get personal, name calling, etc, it's almost always an immediate caution from me. Some occasions they might get away with a verbal warning first but that doesn't happen too often.

NH Makes a great point about the AR's. If they run over to the AR to complain I'm very quick on the draw. I'll give them one chance by either me or the AR telling them to disperse. If they do not, I'll pick out the true instigators (they're usually pretty obvious) and the caution will be forth coming. The key though is getting them dispersed first before you caution, otherwise it just gets worse.

[GKbenji]

For me there's a couple of ways they can "cross the line":

- make it personal. As in moving from a comment on the call to a comment about me

- make it loud. Quieter it is the more they can get away with.

- when I've indicated that its enough, either verbally "that's enough" or "no more" etc, or visually by walking away

- My "line" gets crossed MUCH easier if its dissent towards my AR, ESPECIALLY if its a youth AR

I have a list of "P's" that echoes NHRef and adds one. I will card for dissent if it is:

Personal. Disagreeing with an opinion call is one thing, accusing a ref of bias or worse can't be ignored.

Public. The louder it is, the less it can be ignored.

Persistent. Venting is one thing, but it has to stop quickly.

Profane. Profanity will get you a caution for dissent faster, even if it doesn't quite rise to the level of OIAL for a straight red. More leeway for this in adult games than youth.

I might add one for anyone who goes off on AR's... anyone think of a good word for that that begins with P? :)

[mw26]

- My "line" gets crossed MUCH easier if its dissent towards my AR, ESPECIALLY if its a youth AR

My tolerance towards almost any AR is close to zero.

[Gary V]

"I don't think I heard that, and I don't want to have to not hear it again." They'll catch on a couple minutes later.

[LoewenBoy]

"I don't think I heard that, and I don't want to have to not hear it again." They'll catch on a couple minutes later.
The German equivalent is: "Bitte, klappen Sie Ihren Mund, oder Sie koennen sofort der Parkplatz besuchen."

In English: "Please hold your tongue or you can go visit the parking lot straight away.":D

[blkbrnrvr]

The German equivalent is: "Bitte, klappen Sie Ihren Mund, oder Sie koennen sofort der Parkplatz besuchen."

In English: "Please hold your tongue or you can go visit the parking lot straight away.":D

the fact that you say it with the formal Sie makes it even better. :D

[LoewenBoy]

the fact that you say it with the formal Sie makes it even better. :D
If I say it in Bayrisch it is even better b/c then only those versed in Bavarian can understand. :D

Actually did this once to a coach who was screaming in English and Spanish for about 20 minutes. I had asked him to quiet down, as he was protesting every little call. Finally, he began making his remarks ONLY in Spanish (I guess he thinks all white dudes are gringos who cannot speak Spanish). The last straw was his personal remark to me in Spanish, to which I replied (in german) "Please have a seat on the bench or I will toss you out of this game so far you will need a map to find your car". He looked at me puzzled and asked, "Why did you speak to me in German?" I responded, "Why did you insult me in Spanish?" He sat down and was a perfect gentleman the rest of the match.

After the match a person came up to me laughing, asking me if the coach understood what I had said. She was Austrian and spent the rest of the game laughing.:D

[Wreave]

"I don't think I heard that, and I don't want to have to not hear it again." They'll catch on a couple minutes later.

LOVE IT!!!

I hate giving out cautions for dissent. They seem so pointless. Anything to avoid them is good in my book.

On the original question - how much? - it depends. Ignoring rarely seems to work as it just escalates. If it's bilateral, as it often is, I'll hold the play at a kick and advise as many players as I can get within earshot that my tolerance for dissent has ended. Sometimes that does it... sometimes there's another comment and another card.

[LoewenBoy]

I hate giving out cautions for dissent. They seem so pointless. Anything to avoid them is good in my book.
Had a game last night (U19 boys) where a striker was called offside by my AR...a solid call no one contested, EXCEPT the striker. His response? Looking straight at my AR and at the top of his lungs and for all 500 people nearby to hear, "No f*&$ing way!!!". :D

Now, had he said it so only those within a 10 yard earshot could have heard him he might have stayed on the field. However, the folks on the surround 5 fields (mostly U10-U12 matches) as well as the people in the concession stand (50 yards away) heard him...damn near stopped everyone in the park. My AR and I simply made eye contact, a pat on his back pocket to show we were in agreement and to the showers he went.

Funny thing: His team was up 11-4.:eek: The boy just got greedy. His coach (also his Dad) was NOT happy with him.:D

[Wreave]

^^ When they deserve it, send them off.

I'm just saying that, as a fan of the game, I hate cautions for dissent. They're just dumb... though the example you gave certainly gives a new meaning to the term.

I have certainly given my fair share - but I'd rather learn more tools to avoid needing to give them. "I don't think I heard that..." is great. Other suggestions appreciated!

[LoewenBoy]

^^ When they deserve it, send them off.

I'm just saying that, as a fan of the game, I hate cautions for dissent. They're just dumb... though the example you gave certainly gives a new meaning to the term.

I have certainly given my fair share - but I'd rather learn more tools to avoid needing to give them. "I don't think I heard that..." is great. Other suggestions appreciated!
Agreed. Epecially if you catch it early. I have found that taking the time to have a small conversation usually diffuses the situations. I have had more than one coach come up to me saying they liked the fact that I did not "let the cards fly" and instead talked to them. But, I have had some colleagues chastise me for talking to the players. They don't think anything is served by it. Funny thing is, they have more issues with dissent in their games than I do in mine. Sure you always get the coach/player who thinks nothing we do is right. But most understand that there is mutual respect out there and if they don't show it they won't get it.

But you have to admit, the occassional yellow card to the smart-asses of the world feels REAL good.:D

[AspireNatlRef]

I have a list of "P's" that echoes NHRef and adds one. I will card for dissent if it is:

Personal. Disagreeing with an opinion call is one thing, accusing a ref of bias or worse can't be ignored.

Public. The louder it is, the less it can be ignored.

Persistent. Venting is one thing, but it has to stop quickly.

Profane. Profanity will get you a caution for dissent faster, even if it doesn't quite rise to the level of OIAL for a straight red. More leeway for this in adult games than youth.

I might add one for anyone who goes off on AR's... anyone think of a good word for that that begins with P? :)
P=Partner

[nsa]

Regarding the "stern face" look and gesture. I prefer to smile, 'cause it confuses the hell out of the player. ;)

If I need to approach the player then I'll usually smile broadly and suggest that it would be a tragedy to ruin a beautiful day/game/whatever by having less than 22 players on the field. And I may ask the player for his help in keeping 22 players on the field. :)

That said, on Sunday I had the center of a B19 match in the summer developmental program. One team was short to start with; they'd already played one 60-minute match, losing 4-0; the grass was waaaayyyy too long and tempers were short in the heat. Down 2-0 already, a player let out, "That's f#@^ing b...s..." after a non-call. In a normal game that'd likely be straight red. Instead, I had him leave the field to chat with his coach for a bit and told the coach that the player could return to the game when the coach was convinced there'd be no further outbursts. About 5 minutes later he was up at midfield and I waved him back on. Quiet as a church mouse for the remainder of the game.

Such tactics may work with adults and older players. U16 and younger are unlikely to understand the subtle humour and sarcasm and need more of a direct approach.