Messi vs Diego

[lanman]

Once more:

Great players win titles, Maradona didnt untill he turned 25

Not always - Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney, Alan Shearer were all great players with little to no return.
If you don't play at a big club it is difficult to win trophies. It's not a difficult concept to understand but you really are struggling with it.
Also, Maradona won his first title at the age of 21, which was (drum roll please) the first year he played for a big club. Before that he played for a team that was never a threat to even challenge for the title and he, singlehandedly, turned them into a team that did challenge.

You were talking about Diego's great goal scoring record in Argentina. Messi would have done the same and probally win some prices as well

So what does Aguero have to do with this? Also, what grounds do you have to suppose that Messi would match his record given that he has struggled to play 20 games in a single season.

It's not

Such a great argument. 40 is a lot less than 160. Four times less in fact. Maradona had some seasons before the age of 20 where he played more games than Messi has in his career. That makes the number of games Messi has played insignificant when compared to Maradona's record.

Maybe you didnt notice yet but Messi is 19

Really? Something I never knew. Thank you for enlightening me with your knowledge. The point I was making (which you managed to miss completely) is that from the age of 16 to the age of 19 Maradona was the focal point of a poor team which he turned into title contenders and that by suggesting that we try to look at how Messi would have coped in a similar situation (it would be a bit difficult to turn a similar team into contenders when he finds it hard to play 20 games a year)

Hopefully it's a joke

If your original point (on which that argument was based) is a joke, then yes it is a joke. Otherwise it is just a point made using your own reasoning.

Messi did both

So six games (played after the title was won) constitutes a key contirbution towards winning the title? Likewise, does playing in less than half of the games in the other title Barcelona won constitue anything other than a partial contribution? How many times did Messi play after the group stages of the Champions League in 2006? again it wa nothing more than a partial contribution.

Argentines are not really a good argument

So you would fit in really well.

Now do me (and anyone else who stumbles across this thread) a serious favour by stop continuing an argument you have clearly lost about a subject you clearly have no idea about. Please.

[argentine soccer fan]

Great players win titles, Maradona didnt untill he turned 25

Where do you get your information?

Maradona didn't win the World cup until he was 25. But he did win some other titles earlier in his career.

At age 18 Maradona was the star of Argentina and led them in dominant fashion to win the World Youth (U-20) Title.

At age 20 he was the key player in leading Boca Juniors to its first Argentine league title in five years, in the process beating a star-studded River Plate that had I think six players from Argentina 78 WC winners.

At age 22 he won the Copa del Rey with Barcelona, beating Real Madrid in the final.

At age 25, he won the World Cup, and put together what is arguably the most dominant performance in the history of the World Cup.

He later won two Italian league championships with Napoli, as well as a UEFA cup, a Coppa Italia and a Supercup.

[guado]

Because I know soccer, if you think Messi is not twice the player Aguero is there is no point to keep on talking to you


Try to get some more twisted logic

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

as far as those two lines, and the rests of his posts...

Hopefully it's a joke

talk about fan boys...

[argentine soccer fan]

Why don't you go and post this comparison on the Argentina board? I'm pretty sure you will be laughed off it.

He already has built quite a reputation for himself on the Argentine boards. I think he thrives on being laughed at.

[Paul_NL]

Once more:



Not always - Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney, Alan Shearer were all great players with little to no return.

They were not then

If you don't play at a big club it is difficult to win trophies. It's not a difficult concept to understand but you really are struggling with it.
Also, Maradona won his first title at the age of 21, which was (drum roll please) the first year he played for a big club. Before that he played for a team that was never a threat to even challenge for the title and he, singlehandedly, turned them into a team that did challenge.

Interesting. What was your point again?


So what does Aguero have to do with this? Also, what grounds do you have to suppose that Messi would match his record given that he has struggled to play 20 games in a single season.

Aguero scored in the Argentine league, but that is probally to difficult to understand for you. Messi would score atleast as much as Maradona in Argentina at the same age



Such a great argument. 40 is a lot less than 160. Four times less in fact. Maradona had some seasons before the age of 20 where he played more games than Messi has in his career. That makes the number of games Messi has played insignificant when compared to Maradona's record.

Messi plays for the best team, Maradona for a sucky team

Really? Something I never knew. Thank you for enlightening me with your knowledge. The point I was making (which you managed to miss completely) is that from the age of 16 to the age of 19 Maradona was the focal point of a poor team which he turned into title contenders and that by suggesting that we try to look at how Messi would have coped in a similar situation (it would be a bit difficult to turn a similar team into contenders when he finds it hard to play 20 games a year)

Winning games at Barca is about 20x times more difficult then scoring some goals in Argentina

If your original point (on which that argument was based) is a joke, then yes it is a joke. Otherwise it is just a point made using your own reasoning.

No, I was talking about your logic, but that is probally to difficult to understand


So six games (played after the title was won) constitutes a key contirbution towards winning the title? Likewise, does playing in less than half of the games in the other title Barcelona won constitue anything other than a partial contribution? How many times did Messi play after the group stages of the Champions League in 2006? again it wa nothing more than a partial contribution.

What was your point again?

So you would fit in really well.

Now do me (and anyone else who stumbles across this thread) a serious favour by stop continuing an argument you have clearly lost about a subject you clearly have no idea about. Please.

Consider the source



Paul

[Paul_NL]

Where do you get your information?

Maradona didn't win the World cup until he was 25. But he did win some other titles earlier in his career.

At age 18 Maradona was the star of Argentina and led them in dominant fashion to win the World Youth (U-20) Title.

At age 20 he was the key player in leading Boca Juniors to its first Argentine league title in five years, in the process beating a star-studded River Plate that had I think six players from Argentina 78 WC winners.

At age 22 he won the Copa del Rey with Barcelona, beating Real Madrid in the final.

At age 25, he won the World Cup, and put together what is arguably the most dominant performance in the history of the World Cup.

He later won two Italian league championships with Napoli, as well as a UEFA cup, a Coppa Italia and a Supercup.

He won a title at 21, Messi already has 2 and probally get 3 or 4 at 21

[Pecho Frio]

Messi is better.

One simple reason: Just compare the quality of defending in MAra's and Messi's era. Before 1990 teams could not defend. Defenders lacked physical strenght and zonal marking mentalities.

Now this is not the case. Defenders are faster, stronger, more intelligent, better at any type of marking and on defending set pieces.

Considering this, and observing Messi and Mara's stats along with their football, its pretty obvious to remark Messi's superiority.

[Jc18star]

This whole thread reminds me why I think 99% of the worlds population are totally stupid. Paul_NL you don't understand how to argue a point because you go back on your own logic and reason for supporting Messi by dimissing the Oleguer also winning the CL as a logical reason for being "better than Diego". Also are you comparing the whole career to Maradona to Messi or just up to the same age Messi is now? You need to be clear in what your driving at before you start the conversation.

Also factor in that Messi didn't even play in the CL final and was on the teams roster but not in the game and your whole point goes out the window. He was part of the club when it won but not even on the pitch. As for the La Liga titles he missed large chunks of time in both because of injury and so on.

Last of all Messi is not a focal player at Barca, he is a role player in a team of stars, Maradona was always the star of his team no matter what because he was head and shoulders above anyone playing with or against him. Stepping on as a sub in a WC game that is well in the bag and getting a goal and and assist doesn't compare with winning a WC pretty much on your own while your foot and ankle are being held together with a nail and pin. Any titles won by Maradona were becasuse of Maradona flat out the same can't be said of Messi at this point.

Pecho Frio-As for defenders not knowing how to defend and not being strong.....you must be taking the piss. In Maradona's day players were not protected like they are today, he had to deal with being man marked by two players and being kicked pillar to post game in and game out, but then again I am not shocked at your post, this thread is bringing out the full range from ignorant to the out right stupid.

[argentine soccer fan]

Messi is better.

One simple reason: Just compare the quality of defending in MAra's and Messi's era. Before 1990 teams could not defend. Defenders lacked physical strenght and zonal marking mentalities.

Now this is not the case. Defenders are faster, stronger, more intelligent, better at any type of marking and on defending set pieces.

Considering this, and observing Messi and Mara's stats along with their football, its pretty obvious to remark Messi's superiority.

Yes, lets compare the defending. If you think there was no defending in the 80's you don't know football. Some of the all-time great defenders played in that era. In fact, football has overall become more wide open since 1990. The scoring averages have gone up.

And, thanks to refs protecting the skill players today, it is unlikely that Messi will ever have to deal with a player like Claudio Gentile. Or like the butcher Goeycoechea, who purposely injured Maradona and almost ended his career. Nowadays, those type of players would get red carded every match, so they'd have to change their game.

Diego's amazing comeback from that horrible injury that shattered his leg is one of the many ways he proved his greatness. I hope Messi never has to go through that kind of ordeal.

[Paul_NL]

Also are you comparing the whole career to Maradona to Messi or just up to the same age Messi is now?

but then again I am not shocked at your post, this thread is bringing out the full range from ignorant to the out right stupid.

You nailed it on the head

[Pecho Frio]

Yes, lets compare the defending. If you think there was no defending in the 80's you don't know football. Some of the all-time great defenders played in that era. In fact, Football has overall become more wide open since 1990. The scoring averages have gone up.





Pecho Frio-As for defenders not knowing how to defend and not being strong.....you must be taking the piss. In Maradona's day players were not protected like they are today, he had to deal with being man marked by two players and being kicked pillar to post game in and game out, but then again I am not shocked at your post, this thread is bringing out the full range from ignorant to the out right stupid.

facts: now;

defenders skills are better
defensive tactics are better
set piece positioning is better
pressing is much higher - something that tires the attacking midfield players
tempo of the game is much higher

[lanman]

facts: now;

defenders skills are better
defensive tactics are better
set piece positioning is better
pressing is much higher - something that tires the attacking midfield players
tempo of the game is much higher

The first three are merely opinions, not facts. Pressing also tires defending players. The tempo of the game is higher because the players are generally fitter. None of these necessarily translates to defences being better now or being better 30 years ago. It's just your opinion.

[lanman]

They were not then

That just proves beyond any reasonable doubt that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Shearer is debatable is a truly great player (although he was certainly one of the best strikers of his generation) but to dismiss Matthews and Finney shows a complete and utter lack of knowledge and it's now safe to say that your opinions are worthless.

I'm not even going to bother to respond to the rest of your post as there is not a single new argument in there. When you have actually made a new point and not repeated the same old disproved claims then we might be able to continue this, until then may you wallow happily in your ignorance.

[Pecho Frio]

The first three are merely opinions, not facts. Pressing also tires defending players. The tempo of the game is higher because the players are generally fitter. None of these necessarily translates to defences being better now or being better 30 years ago. It's just your opinion.

I think these are facts

and

Who gets tired first? Who generally has got the least physical strenght and stamina in a footy team? att midfielders ? yes.

In Mara's time, an attacking midfielder could have had 5 or more seconds without serious opposition.

Modern football just does not let an attacking midfielder get that amount of time. Another obvious fact

[lanman]

I think these are facts

If they are facts then go ahead and prove it.



Who gets tired first? Who generally has got the least physical strenght and stamina in a footy team? att midfielders ? yes.

The least fit player. Could be anyone on the pitch.

Modern football just does not let an attacking midfielder get that amount of time. Another obvious fact

It depends all on teams tactics. Players might get more time in midfeld, but in the last third (where nearly all damage is done) from what I have seen there is very little difference in terms of time allowed on the ball.

[argentine soccer fan]

Aguero scored in the Argentine league, but that is probally to difficult to understand for you. Messi would score atleast as much as Maradona in Argentina at the same age


I don't get your point about Aguero, it is irrelevant. Aguero is a forward, while Messi and Diego are offensive midfielders with enough talent to score as much as a forward. Even Messi plays a more forward position than Diego did.

But beyond that, Paul, if you know Argentine football, you know very well that the Argentine league today isn't what it used to be in the late 70's and early 80's. Back then it was unheard of for a 16 year old like Diego to make a starting lineup, even at a small club like Argentinos Juniors. Today, due to the exportation of talent to Europe, it is common to see 17 and 18 year old players starting and doing well.

This is not to say that Aguero is not a great player, but you are comparing apples with oranges. Yes, Messi would do well in Argentina today, there is no doubt he would start and score lots of goals. But when Diego came up, he was one of a kind, a national phenomenom. He played for Argentinos Juniors, a team with very little talent, that was fighting relegation. And at the age of 16 he turned them into a contender, as they challenged for the title every year he was there, finishing as high as second. Even allowing for the fact that Argentine league is weaker today, do you think Messi would win a title today with, say, Quilmes?

The moment Maradona went to a good team, Boca, he won a title. And remember, Boca wasn't that good that year. Virtually the same team except for him and Brindisi had finished near the bottom the previous season. And after he left for Europe they went back to mediocrity. But with Diego they won a title and won it convincingly.

Now, imagine if the young Maradona had played alongside talents like Ronaldinho, Eto'o and co, what he might have achieved.

I know what I'm talking about, I grew up watching Diego, and also I follow Messi. No doubt Messi has the seeds of greatness in him, and he may end up being as dominant as Diego. I would love to see it. But as good as he is, right now he is not what Diego was at his age.

[Paul_NL]

I don't get your point. Aguero is a forward, while Messi and Diego are offensive midfielders with enough talent to score as much as a forward.

But Paul, if you know Argentine football you know very well that the Argentine league today isn't what it used to be in the late 70's and early 80's. Back then it was unheard of for a 16 year old like Diego to make a starting lineup, even at a small club like Argentinos Juniors. Today, due to the exportation of talent to Europe, it is common to see 17 and 18 year old players starting.

This is not to say that Aguero is not a great player, but you are comparing apples with oranges. When Diego came up, he was one of a kind, a national phenomenom. And he played for a team with very little talent, that was fighting relegation, and at 16 he turned them into a contender, they challenged for the title. Imagine if he had played alongside talents like Ronaldinho, Eto'o and co, what he might have achieved.

I grew up watching Diego, and also I follow Messi. No doubt Messi has the seeds of greatness in him, and he may end up being as dominant as Diego. I would love to see it. But as good as he is, right now he is not what Diego was at his age.

Playing against the best defenders in the world every single game at the bigest team in the world with 80.000 spectators is a lot harder then playing in Paternal against sucky players

The 2006-2007 primera division is a lot better now then in the early 80's and eventhough Maradona was in his mid 20's he could win squad there

[Pecho Frio]

If they are facts then go ahead and prove it.

Just watch games 20 years ago and now. There u got ur proof



The least fit player. Could be anyone on the pitch.

I said 'Generally' , attacking midfielders are technique players, rather thn physical ones; although there are exceptions as Ballack. Not much. Mara and Messi are perfect examples of the typical AMC.

It depends all on teams tactics. Players might get more time in midfeld, but in the last third (where nearly all damage is done) from what I have seen there is very little difference in terms of time allowed on the ball.

Sure it depends on team tactis. But today players are more athletic due to improvements in sports sciences, medical sciences (and other improvements as well) . Better athletism bring out the ability to run more without loss of pace. This means the opposition's pression to be much more quicker than before. I really did not think to get into that much of a detail but I'm glad if this has helped you understand the fact.




pecho frio

[guado]

pecho frio


sock?

or just reatarded?

[argentine soccer fan]

facts: now;

defenders skills are better
defensive tactics are better
set piece positioning is better
pressing is much higher - something that tires the attacking midfield players
tempo of the game is much higher

Zone marking has improved, due to the emphasys on physical conditioning. However, the art of man marking has deteriorating, as teams mark more in zones. For exceptional players like Messi and Diego, man marking by an intimidator is probably the best way to try to neutralize them. I think Diego would have thrived against today's defenses, especially with the protection from the refs.