send off the ref...how absurd

[pacref]

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/6586788

The author is from the Associated Press... enough said about that.

Idiots like this will eventually ruin the game. I just love the comment about the 4th having the power to eject the CR. Who will eject the 4th when he becomes CR? The groundskeeper!

Imagine what would happen if this filtered down to the Amateur and Youth Leagues.

I never ceases to amaze me that coaches believe that they can make the calls from distance better than the CR or AR who is in close proximity.

[nsa]

Imagine what would happen if this filtered down to the Amateur and Youth Leagues.

Darwin's Theory in action. ;)

[USSF REF]

Robert Millward needs to think this through a bit more.

This scathing attack on refereeing is a typical sort of thing that you hear from a player or fan when they are frutrated they lost, or felt that they've been robbed by the Referee.

Though this article is seemingly unprovoked, Mr. Millward is still entitled to his opinion, but so am I. I just wonder who he thinks they will get to Referee if they start throwing out the ones they've got in place.

He suggests punishment to referee's when the make errors. That is rubbish however. Do we punish judges when they make decisions on points of law? Certainly, that is not a perfect parallel as no one can appeal to a higher court during a match, but clearly the referee's judgement on certain matters can be reviewed and over ruled by league's diciplinary bodies.

The problem with punishing the referee is that the referee is following the laws when he makes judgements and does the best he can. People are supposed to be punished for breaking rules, violating customs, or being negligent or lazy. People generally aren't punished for making natural mistakes and errors are accepted as part and parcel to the game where refereeing is concerned.

If you threatened referee's with immediate retribution for errors you wouldn't reduce the amount of mistakes, but you would likely make the referee's second guess themselves much more often which probably leads to worse decision making and more errors.

Lastly, do you see anyone taking a supreme court justice off the bench in the middle of a hearing? No. In fact, they get life time security... why? Because they don't want the judge's findings to be unduly influenced by outside concerns.

[mtureck]

The article does make one good point though...the 4th official is badly underutilized. Why not have the 4th ref sitting and watching the tv feed? In the game in question, he would have seen the incorrect call, buzzed the center and told him it wasn't a goal. Re-start with a dropped ball (or an indirect since if the ball wasn't in, then Tevez is offside) and everyone is happy. Give the substitute sign holding duties to anyone else.

[USSF REF]

The article does make one good point though...the 4th official is badly underutilized. Why not have the 4th ref sitting and watching the tv feed? In the game in question, he would have seen the incorrect call, buzzed the center and told him it wasn't a goal. Re-start with a dropped ball (or an indirect since if the ball wasn't in, then Tevez is offside) and everyone is happy. Give the substitute sign holding duties to anyone else.

Have you ever been a 4th official? I am not asking that to sound rude, I am just wondering. Everyone who has never been a 4th official thinks it must be the easiest job on earth. Yet, the role of the 4th official is much more difficult than you might think it is just by watching. That's because a majority of what the 4th official does is rarely seen by anyone watching - except the substitution board and the announcement of extra time.

[bluedevils]

That article was so stupid, I have a hard time believing the author is serious with his suggestions.

The 4th official is definitely a difficult role. Sure, anybody can do it, but "doing the job" and "doing the job well" are 2 different things. It isn't easy to be good as a 4th official. Of the 3 positions in soccer officiating -- ref, AR, and 4th -- 4th official is my weakest area.

[mtureck]

For those of us that don't know, what exactly does the 4th official do?


Have you ever been a 4th official? I am not asking that to sound rude, I am just wondering. Everyone who has never been a 4th official thinks it must be the easiest job on earth. Yet, the role of the 4th official is much more difficult than you might think it is just by watching. That's because a majority of what the 4th official does is rarely seen by anyone watching - except the substitution board and the announcement of extra time.

[gosellit]

QUOTE=mtureck;11006671]For those of us that don't know, what exactly does the 4th official do?[/QUOTE]

Try these links.

http://images.ussoccer.com/Documents/cms/ussf/doc_6_47.pdf

http://images.ussoccer.com/Documents/cms/ussf/doc_6_45.pdf

[refmike]

Don't forget the new position of 5th official - the licensed AR who sits on the sideline and waits for one of the AR's to be hit by a thrown bottle or something like that. He has no official duties.

Actually at all high level games, there is an assessor who is supposed to know at least as much as the referee. If there is a "higher authority" in the area, that would be it.

[USSF REF]

For those of us that don't know, what exactly does the 4th official do?

The 4th official is responsible to monitor the surroundings of the entire field during a match. This includes, both benches, coaches, team officials, game administration personelle, ball kids, security, and spectator intrusion.

He is also responsible for keeping track of every game fact related to refereeing, goals (time and player), misconduct (time and reason), injuries, unsual incidents, subs, etc. He is also the person who writes up the match reports after the game, including the appropriate 7+7 misconduct codes (in USSF games). The referee only has to confirm and sign it.

He is responsible for administering the proper substitution proceedure during the match including the creation and handling of substitution passes. He runs the sign board and ensures the player leaving exits before the player going in enters... no matter how much the player entering tries to run on or begs to go on. He must ensure that the sub can go on as soon as the next stoppage comes up whether its 1 second from the time it was requested or 3 minutes, failing to do so will get you serious heat with the managers.

If there is an injury the 4th must make sure the trainer doesn't charge onto the field prematurely. He also communicates the need for a stretcher to the staff.

He is responsible to act as a sounding board for the managers at time. He tried to bait to coach into having a conversation with him instead of yell at the Referee. A good 4th official will be able to accomplish this so the Referee doesn't have to hear it. The 4th will also ensure that the subs on the bench are seated when not warming up, and when they are warming up they must wear bibs that differentiate them from the players and they may not warm up with any balls.

And if all of that wasn't enough, he is responsible to alert the referee if the referee is about to make a technical error in which he will break the laws of the game (ie. send off a player who has received a 2nd caution, or help correct mistaken identity).

Still throughout the rest of the match the 4th official should be watching the areas of the field that the referee is not and alerting the AR's if there is off the ball misconduct. He will also want to suggest an amount of stoppage time to the ref (if requested) and display the referee's decided upon amount of stoppage time to the crowd. He also serves to communicate with the TV/Stadium spotter who is in touch with the public address system and the television spotters who display info on the TV screen.

But yeah, it's a pretty easy job. :rolleyes:

[mtureck]

Thanks for the info...good stuff to know.

The 4th official is responsible to monitor the surroundings of the entire field during a match. This includes, both benches, coaches, team officials, game administration personelle, ball kids, security, and spectator intrusion.

He is also responsible for keeping track of every game fact related to refereeing, goals (time and player), misconduct (time and reason), injuries, unsual incidents, subs, etc. He is also the person who writes up the match reports after the game, including the appropriate 7+7 misconduct codes (in USSF games). The referee only has to confirm and sign it.

He is responsible for administering the proper substitution proceedure during the match including the creation and handling of substitution passes. He runs the sign board and ensures the player leaving exits before the player going in enters... no matter how much the player entering tries to run on or begs to go on. He must ensure that the sub can go on as soon as the next stoppage comes up whether its 1 second from the time it was requested or 3 minutes, failing to do so will get you serious heat with the managers.

If there is an injury the 4th must make sure the trainer doesn't charge onto the field prematurely. He also communicates the need for a stretcher to the staff.

He is responsible to act as a sounding board for the managers at time. He tried to bait to coach into having a conversation with him instead of yell at the Referee. A good 4th official will be able to accomplish this so the Referee doesn't have to hear it. The 4th will also ensure that the subs on the bench are seated when not warming up, and when they are warming up they must wear bibs that differentiate them from the players and they may not warm up with any balls.

And if all of that wasn't enough, he is responsible to alert the referee if the referee is about to make a technical error in which he will break the laws of the game (ie. send off a player who has received a 2nd caution, or help correct mistaken identity).

Still throughout the rest of the match the 4th official should be watching the areas of the field that the referee is not and alerting the AR's if there is off the ball misconduct. He will also want to suggest an amount of stoppage time to the ref (if requested) and display the referee's decided upon amount of stoppage time to the crowd. He also serves to communicate with the TV/Stadium spotter who is in touch with the public address system and the television spotters who display info on the TV screen.

But yeah, it's a pretty easy job. :rolleyes:

[NHRef]

But yeah, it's a pretty easy job. :rolleyes:

Most of us have never been or had a 4th, and it is everything you say, however it can be an easy job or it can be a nightmare, same as any other ref role :eek:

My first experience with a 4th, I was the coach side AR and the coach took a pretty much instant dislike to me after I didn't call a ball out of bounds that he disagreed with. For the rest of the game everytime I ended up near the coach, he tried to start in with me again, or wouldn't move to give me room running up the touch, even after a shoulder-shoulder contact. The 4th, made my day bearable, he interceeded everytime I came up that way and did a WONDERFULL job of distracting the coach's attention from me. Including calling the CR over after the coach made a comment about my wife. Personally i wanted him tossed, but the CR just told him to shut it off or he would be tossed.

They can be a life saver!!

[LoewenBoy]

Idiots like this will eventually ruin the game. I just love the comment about the 4th having the power to eject the CR. Who will eject the 4th when he becomes CR? The groundskeeper!

Imagine what would happen if this filtered down to the Amateur and Youth Leagues.
Yeah...like there is not an attrition problem already. Don't see this writer doning the colors on the weekend to help out HIS local YSA.

Man, as AR I have to be fairly convinced that damn piece of leather is FULLY over the line before I give something like that. We all know it happens FAR too fast.

[BTFOOM]

I am not a ref, I am a soccer coach (I know, that can get me banned from here in an instant), player and fan. I understand the writer's frustration at times and agree that there are times the ref gets a call wrong.

His call for punishment, though, is where I squarely disagree with him. His attempt to equate carding/dismissal for players to ejection of referees is comparing apples to oranges. Players are cautioned/dismissed for any number of reasons, all relating to the player's conduct as it relates to the LAWS of the game. At no time have I ever seen nor heard of a player being cautioned/dismissed for making a mistake while playing the game. I've seen plenty of times when a player makes the simplest of errors (usually when watching my own two feet), but never does the ref caution them. This is where he misses the point. Unless the referee is blatantly biased, all of the items he mentions are errors (at worst) or judgement calls (at best). The only time I would support removing a ref is if he/she were blatantly for or against one of the teams. Applying his logic to players, the ref would caution for every missed header, sloppy pass, or smashing the ball over the goal from only a yard out (hangs his head in shame). It would make for a lonely pitch after 15-20 minutes.

[jacoismyhero]

That's a very good player/coach perspective, and it's greatly appreciated from the referee community, haha.

[Janice]

Acountabilty is a grim word and even if the AR gave the benifit of doubt to offside player not contacting the ball before it crossed the goal line as I know how decieving camera angles can be, the AR decided he saw what he saw. Once he sees what everyone else saw he could think different! Punishment is not the right concept, accountability is. Yes we make mistakes but as you might remember the referee and AR who made the mistake in the Maradona hand of God goal were not heard from much after that so red card or blackballed not a great deal of difference. Imagine if ESSE had not caught that Scandanavian pure shot of the PK to guard his back because those around were quick to jump on and off that boat I can tell you! :mad:

[FIFARay007]

If the 4th ref is able to throw the ref out, then who will be watching that ref to make sure he should throw the first ref out? And who will ref him?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[nonya]

The other problem...and is this is something that a journalist who probably has never participated as an athlete or an official in a sport would not understand is...that the referees are the third team out there. We all know that they work together as a crew. The LAST thing you will ever want to see is the crew turn against itself and start dismissing each other. I can picture a scenario where the fourth official tries to dismiss the referee (under this journalist's scenario), but the referee dismisses the fourth official (as is allowed under the laws currently) AR1 sides with the fourth official and AR2 sides with the referee.

Opinions are like....well we know what they are like.

[USSF REF]

The other problem...and is this is something that a journalist who probably has never participated as an athlete or an official in a sport would not understand is...that the referees are the third team out there. We all know that they work together as a crew. The LAST thing you will ever want to see is the crew turn against itself and start dismissing each other. I can picture a scenario where the fourth official tries to dismiss the referee (under this journalist's scenario), but the referee dismisses the fourth official (as is allowed under the laws currently) AR1 sides with the fourth official and AR2 sides with the referee.

Opinions are like....well we know what they are like.

Well of course the Journalists remarks were a clear case of satirical hyperbole. I highly doubt that he actually means that he wishes the 4th official could kick the referee out. Obviously, this sort of thing would completely bring the game into disrepute, and even the most dense of sports writers would understand this concept.

What he is advocating is "punishing" referees for making errors on judgement calls. Well, what he doesn't realize is that referee's are held accountable to their decisions and they are "punished" when they make technical errors as it relates to the letter of the law.

Referees who have repeatedly poor performances, or make judgment calls that are outside of the "realm" of what players and fans expect, you won't see them on many more matches. But a mistake here or there is to be expected and forgiven. Even if a player makes 25 mistakes in a game and the referee only makes 3 - that is OK for the player but 3 too many for the referee, to the majority of people in the world.

When Graham Poll failed to send off a player after he received 2 cautions, did they ask him to referee another match in the world cup? No. He was "punished" for this by having his WC end. - Did a guy wearing a FIFA blazer come running down to the field with a giant hook and go "yoink" and pull Graham off the pitch during the game? NO! When the same thing happened in MLS the entire crew was suspended for 6 months! - As a referee you're expected to know and apply the laws of the game correctly, even if a simple clarical error is the cause for violating the laws, you're responsible and you should be held accountable. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

But make no mistake, if you start sanctioning referees for incorrect judgment calls, you're going to start to take away some of the referee's independent authority in making decisions. Every call will be made with a greater level of doubt and the confidence of the referee will go right out the window. If you allow that to happen - you're going to see more bad calls, not fewer. Either give the referee video evidence to help him get it right, or leave the judgment decisions in the hands of the referee's who are in the best position, on the field of play.

Now, wouldn't it be nice if we could suspend a journalist every time he prints a factual inacuracy regarding the laws of the game, or misprints any well known factual information? That would be nice too, but I guess those guys are permitted to make mistakes. You know because when a referee makes an error, it negatively affects one or both teams in a match. But when a reporter makes an error it doesn't hurt anyone... oh wait, apparently people trust information that is printed by the news media fairly blindly so maybe mistakes by reporters DO have significant impact on ALL of their readers...

[mw26]

i just want to say this:

is a 5th grade education the new standard for for AP hiring? omg, almost nothing in that article passes for a coherent thought, and the writing itself wasn't exactly steinbeck :rolleyes: