Goal keeper handball question

[KMJvet]

If a goalkeeper is running to the edge of the box and trips and ends up outside the box, on the ground or not, but still holding a ball fully past the line, is that handling? I don't mean tripped by someone else, just on their own feet or a blade of grass or something. The trip itself wouldn't be intentional. Would they have to immediately drop the ball because as soon as they went to kick or throw it or move it back to the other side side of the line, that action would be intentional and they'd still be holding the past the line ball?

[blech]

don't overthink it. the ball is in the goalie's hands and the ball is outside of the penalty area. it's handling.

the goalie is deliberately holding the ball. maybe it was some crazy play that led to the goalie being outside the area, but just ask whether the handling of the ball was deliberate and you get your answer.

(a somewhat odd scenario you've posed. if you want a more realistic one, it occurs to me that you might have a scenario where the goalie is sliding out to pick up the ball, and then hits a slick spot and just keeps sliding over the line. still pretty unlikely, but perhaps a little more realistic than tripping over a blade of grass. again, the goalie didn't mean to slide over the line, but that's not the question.)

[USSF REF]

don't overthink it. the ball is in the goalie's hands and the ball is outside of the penalty area. it's handling.

the goalie is deliberately holding the ball. maybe it was some crazy play that led to the goalie being outside the area, but just ask whether the handling of the ball was deliberate and you get your answer.

(a somewhat odd scenario you've posed. if you want a more realistic one, it occurs to me that you might have a scenario where the goalie is sliding out to pick up the ball, and then hits a slick spot and just keeps sliding over the line. still pretty unlikely, but perhaps a little more realistic than tripping over a blade of grass. again, the goalie didn't mean to slide over the line, but that's not the question.)

Yes. This is handling agreed. The action is deliberate, meaning he was holding the ball on the run up so he obviously meant to be doing that and his actions were of a deliberate nature.

Anyway, you might see something like this where a keeper is coming out hard to collect a through ball and an attacker is looming. The keeper over runs and after he picks up the ball his momentum caries him outside the penalty area. He may not have intended to go outside the penalty area, but he did. Whether that was clumsy, intentional, or just unlucky is irrelevant - whats important is the fact that the keeper is holding the ball while the ball is not within the confines of this own penalty area. Thus, it's a foul.

[KMJvet]

Thanks, those other examples make it clear.

[Ref Flunkie]

Honestly (flame me all you want boys), I would likely consider it trifiling and get on with the game, unless he fell quite a ways outside of the area. However, if he trips and the ball is a foot or two outside, I would likely not call it.

[macheath]

Honestly (flame me all you want boys), I would likely consider it trifiling and get on with the game, unless he fell quite a ways outside of the area. However, if he trips and the ball is a foot or two outside, I would likely not call it.

Maybe not in a youth game, but as the game gets to a higher, more competitive level, you need to call this, or be prepared for lots of game management problems for the rest of the match.

[MassachusettsRef]

Honestly (flame me all you want boys), I would likely consider it trifiling and get on with the game, unless he fell quite a ways outside of the area. However, if he trips and the ball is a foot or two outside, I would likely not call it.Would you not call a ball over a touch line by a foot or two?

The goalkeeper may not have "intended" to handle the ball outside his area but, simple logic holds that as you approach the limits of the penalty area, the more likely it is that you may accidentally find yourself outside that area. The action to handle the ball is deliberate and the goalkeeper is responsible for knowing where he is on the field. The handling is legal inside the area but illegal outside. It's got to be cut and dry.

Maybe--MAYBE--in a youth game, particularly one that is recreational and possibly a blowout, you try to get on with the game (though there's still some value to teaching a keeper here the lesson of being aware of their position). But in any sort of competitive match, you've got to call this handling or you lose all credibility.

[Chubbywubby]

You not only have to call the foul, you must also be thinking DOGSO-H and send him off if necessary.

[Ref Flunkie]

Would you not call a ball over a touch line by a foot or two?

The goalkeeper may not have "intended" to handle the ball outside his area but, simple logic holds that as you approach the limits of the penalty area, the more likely it is that you may accidentally find yourself outside that area. The action to handle the ball is deliberate and the goalkeeper is responsible for knowing where he is on the field. The handling is legal inside the area but illegal outside. It's got to be cut and dry.

Maybe--MAYBE--in a youth game, particularly one that is recreational and possibly a blowout, you try to get on with the game (though there's still some value to teaching a keeper here the lesson of being aware of their position). But in any sort of competitive match, you've got to call this handling or you lose all credibility.

Honestly, I don't see how this is different from the keeper punting the ball a foot or two outside his area (ball, not foot), which, as we have discussed in the past, is not called unless it is after a warning. We see this all the time....no AR will flag this unless he wants to look silly...yet this is still cut and dry "handling outside of the area". Why are we calling one and not the other?

*I am looking at the case where the GK trips and falls and the ball is laying MAYBE 1-2' outside the area*

[MasterShake29]

You not only have to call the foul, you must also be thinking DOGSO-H and send him off if necessary.

No, there would be no reason to issue a card of any color.

They're can't be a goal scoring opportunity if immediately prior to the foul, the keeper had legal possession of the ball. Thus, no red.

I'm not sure what reasoning you'd even have for a yellow.

[uniteo]

You not only have to call the foul, you must also be thinking DOGSO-H and send him off if necessary.

Whhhaaaaaaaaaat?

If he's in possession of the ball how is he denying any goal scoring opportunity? Why not just call it a pk while you're at it?

[ref47]

i side with ref flunkie. as described, this play was not a defensive move. keeper gathered an unchallenged ball but tripped. just outside of the area. i would lean towards trifling here. if the ball were being challenged - call the handling. if the keeper ends up 5 yards out - call the handling. if it happens a second time - call the handling. otherwise, get on with the match. (yes, it is very much like a punt near the line, for me.)

[Ref Flunkie]

i side with ref flunkie. as described, this play was not a defensive move. keeper gathered an unchallenged ball but tripped. just outside of the area. i would lean towards trifling here. if the ball were being challenged - call the handling. if the keeper ends up 5 yards out - call the handling. if it happens a second time - call the handling. otherwise, get on with the match. (yes, it is very much like a put near the line, for me.)



Glad I'm not going at this alone!!! :)

[MassachusettsRef]

Honestly, I don't see how this is different from the keeper punting the ball a foot or two outside his area (ball, not foot), which, as we have discussed in the past, is not called unless it is after a warning. If I remember that discussion correctly, I came down on the opposite side. Yes, if there's some doubt as to whether or not the ball is actually over the line, you don't call it and perhaps warn the keeper that he's close. But, if you're absolutely certain that the ball is being handled outside the area, you make the call. I believe I added the caveat at the time that it would be very rare to ever be "absolutely certain" on a punt, so that call would still almost ever be made.

But, in the situation you describe, as I understand it, the handling would be obvious to all. As such, I feel it must be called. There's an 18-yard penalty area for a reason and a line--literally--has to be drawn.

[IASocFan]

This reminds me of a non-call in a JV game last season. Playing on an artificial surface with bright white football lines and faint yellow soccer lines, the visiting keeper picks up a loose ball runs up past the 18 several yards and punts the ball. Because of the confusing lines (that any smart keeper would have figured out before game time), I considered the offense trifling, and warned the keeper to watch the 18 more carefully. No problems thereafter, and no complaints from the home team which won fairly easily. In the varsity match, I might not have been so understanding.

[falcon.7]

At a local indoor center, there is clause in the rules that state if a goalkeeper, while making a save, etc... ends up outside the box "by momentum", it is not considered handling. This is due to the fast-paced nature and confined spaces of indoor, where a legitimate diving save could very well leave you outside the area. In outdoor though, I can see no good reason why this would happen except on a wet/poor conditioned field.

Not sure what the card would be for...

[Attacking Mid]

I love encountering unique situations like this on a forum, so I can think it through from the comfort of my chair and be ready to make a good call in the heat of the moment if I ever encounter it.

In most cases as described, I have to believe I'd go with the trifling decision. However, as with many things, it would depend on all the factors involved.

As a coach, I would not feel good about winning a match primarily due to getting such a call against my opponent's GK.

AM.

[bluedevils]

I believe I added the caveat at the time that it would be very rare to ever be "absolutely certain" on a punt, so that call would still almost ever be made.

I disagree with your caveat. It is not all that uncommon to see a GK really pushing the envelope when punting near the top of the penalty area. I can think of many occasions when I was working or watching a game and it was obvious the GK still had the ball in his hand while the ball was already fully beyond the top of the PA.

Not all goalkeepers are smart enough or sporting enough to 'keep it close' enough to the line to ensure the officials are NOT forced into making the call.

[bluedevils]

Honestly, I don't see how this is different from the keeper punting the ball a foot or two outside his area (ball, not foot), which, as we have discussed in the past, is not called unless it is after a warning.

I concur with your view and with the stuff ref47 was saying.

Personally, I'm more concerned with making what *I* believe to be the correct decision; what other people expect me to call, and the potential game management issues that may result from me 'springing' an unexpected decision on them, is of a secondary importance.

[Chubbywubby]

Just to clarify - if the GK comes outside of the PA to handle the ball, foul and possibly DOGSO-H. If he initially handles the ball legally inside the area and momentum (or whatever) takes the ball outside of the PA while still in his hands, agreed it is just a simple foul and no misconduct.

Sorry if my previous post sounded confusing.