View Full Version : Controversial call: Blackburn v West Ham [R]
lmorin
17 Mar 2007, 02:59 PM
Look for the replays of the West Ham second goal. One gigantic controversial goal. Involves the offside rule and whether or not the ball crossed the goal line. Probably one of the clearest errors you will ever see. Could have major consequences re use of video for goal determination.
Nothing controversial. Just plain wrong. :) Great video coverage of the goal line. We never see anything close to that with MLS broadcasts.
The 95th minute send-off is pretty controversial, too. Not Blackburn's day.
MasterShake29
17 Mar 2007, 03:22 PM
How in the world was that second West Ham "goal" a) given and b) not offside?
blkbrnrvr
17 Mar 2007, 03:26 PM
How in the world was that second West Ham "goal" a) given and b) not offside?
because someone at the FA wants West Ham to stay up? :mad: :D
JChiavacci
17 Mar 2007, 03:37 PM
That was a hard call for the AR to make. The ball moved so quick that it was difficult for the AR to be directly on the goal line to make the proper call. I can only assume that based on his angle and speed of the play he called the goal. The AR may have also felt that the ball had already crossed the goal line before making contact with the West Ham player (Tevez I think) who was inside the goal and off the field of play at the time of the play.
Englishref
17 Mar 2007, 04:48 PM
Haven't seen it yet, but it was that AR's (Jim Devine) first PL game back after injury.
lmorin
17 Mar 2007, 04:57 PM
..... The AR may have also felt that the ball had already crossed the goal line before making contact with the West Ham player (Tevez I think) who was inside the goal and off the field of play at the time of the play.
That's the only explanation I can come up with. The whole thing was difficult because it was rather a melee among falling, kicking, blocking players. Post may have blocked view of who was on the line in the offside position. Slo-mo replays make things remarkably easy for 20-20 hindsight.
bct81
17 Mar 2007, 04:59 PM
three problems here:
Tevez was offside (even tho he was the who touched it back off the line)
Ball did not completely cross the line ....
There was a handball from Tevez's deflection ....
why the AR simply did not raise the flag and wait for the center ref to come over seems like it would have been the correct call ..... then either declare the goal, declare the offside, or declare the handball ....
guess that is the luck of the day for March 17th .....
but it clearly cost Bburn a point and handed the Hammers plus 2.
Tevez was offside (even tho he was the who touched it back off the line)
If the ball had gone across the line for a goal (as the AR believed) then there would not have been an offside offense since Tevez neither interfered with play nor an opponent.
JChiavacci
17 Mar 2007, 06:55 PM
three problems here:
Tevez was offside (even tho he was the who touched it back off the line)
Ball did not completely cross the line ....
There was a handball from Tevez's deflection ....
I do not think that Tevez was offside, Tevez was in an offside position and moved into the goal but did not interfere with the play. The AR felt that the ball had crossed the goal line before touching Tevez thus awarding the goal and not offside.
However, if in the opinion of the AR the ball had not crossed the goal line then Tevez would have been or should have been penalized for offside since he deflected the ball back into the field of play which would negate the handball after the deflection.
Interesting play to discuss, a lot going on.
Brook
17 Mar 2007, 07:04 PM
Tevez was NOT in the goal but rather on the line.
Englishref
17 Mar 2007, 08:04 PM
Having just watched it on MOTD, since the ball didn't cross the line, it's a case of take your pick, in this order; handball, offside, no goal.
However, for the hypotheticals, I agree that had it crossed the line, then the goal should have stood, but nonetheless, it didn't.
intechpc
18 Mar 2007, 12:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlRvDv0cO9c
There's the link to the TV coverage on YouTube (Unfortunately you have to sit through about 2 minutes of coverage of the first two goals in the match). Definitely not a goal. However, also an extremely hard call to make given the speed at which that ball richocet's back and forth in there. Too bad because it certainly is a costly mistake.
USSF REF
18 Mar 2007, 07:55 PM
Not a goal. Howard Webb went off the AR though, so don't blame him.
Should be offside, however like EnglishRef said had the ball actually crossed the line, there would not be any offside, it would stand.
superdave
19 Mar 2007, 11:36 AM
Not a goal. Howard Webb went off the AR though,
Are you sure? Because to me, it looked like he made the call in an instant. I can't imagine the AR making his judgment, taking a breath to be sure, and then using the wireless mic to talk to Webb in that time.
I know he consulted the AR after, but the announcers (I know, I know, there's about a 51% chance they're right) said that once Webb called a goal, he couldn't take it back. (Sort of like there can't be a fumble in our football after an inadvertent whistle...players stop at the whistle, so you don't know who would recover it if the whistle hadn't blown, so you can't have a fumble.). If they were right, the AR needs to avoid a players' riot and agree with Webb.
whistleblowerusa
19 Mar 2007, 11:46 AM
Was not Webb's best day. He has had many better days. The AR throughout the match was not up with play at all. On this play the play started from about the top of the penalty area and the ball was kicked into Tevez who was on the goal line. When the ball hit Tevez it came from about 6 yards away. A fit and focused FIFA AR would have been able to easily make the correct decision from there if moving with play. If the AR was not in a good position to make the call as some have said, he should not make it at all. No guessing, just don't make it. No goal.
On Webb's send of with seconds left, poor player management and consistency. Compared to what he let go during the match, it was not even close to a caution.
USSF REF
19 Mar 2007, 11:50 AM
Are you sure? Because to me, it looked like he made the call in an instant. I can't imagine the AR making his judgment, taking a breath to be sure, and then using the wireless mic to talk to Webb in that time.
I know he consulted the AR after, but the announcers (I know, I know, there's about a 51% chance they're right) said that once Webb called a goal, he couldn't take it back. (Sort of like there can't be a fumble in our football after an inadvertent whistle...players stop at the whistle, so you don't know who would recover it if the whistle hadn't blown, so you can't have a fumble.). If they were right, the AR needs to avoid a players' riot and agree with Webb.
Of course they're wrong. The referee can change his mind on a decision until play has been restarted. In this case if he determined he was wrong in awarding a goal it's an inadvertant whistle and restart with a dropped ball from the appropriate location (top of goal area).
From what I saw it looked like the ball bounced back in the field then Webb looks over toward the AR's side of the touchline, then he blows the whistle for a goal. Thats why I think the AR was the decision maker on this one.
MassachusettsRef
19 Mar 2007, 11:50 AM
Are you sure? Because to me, it looked like he made the call in an instant. I can't imagine the AR making his judgment, taking a breath to be sure, and then using the wireless mic to talk to Webb in that time.I think it's fairly certain that the AR made the call. To start, no FIFA referee is going to make that call by himself. But, further, from the video evidence you can see that Webb starts to follow the ball to his left after it hits Tevez and then turns around to face his AR and signal upfield for the goal. To me, that's evidence that Webb was beeped (or called audibly through the mic) by the AR and then turned to confirm his call visually.
In fact, the video evidence makes me infer that Webb himself didn't think it was a goal, because he didn't do a quick check to his right at the time of the play. He was probably just as surprised as everyone else that the AR had given a goal.
whistleblowerusa
19 Mar 2007, 01:36 PM
So after looking at the replay I was reminded that the play started on a corner kick restart. The 2nd to last defender is on the post. The keeper is about 1 yard off the goal line during almost the whole play. That means that the AR was and should have been almost on the goal line with only the near post in his line of sight. My guess is that he was not focused and was watching play and not anticipating the position of Tevez and missed he call and just guessed.