Enticed by our midfield options

[cpwilson80]

After mulling over the roster, I'm enticed by our midfield options. Two experiements I'd love to see:

1. Donovan and Beasley as dual attacking-mids in a box midfield.
2. Dempsey in central midfield.

1. Nearly three years ago, the US submitted one of its finest aesthetic performances against Mexico in a friendly. The game featured Donovan and Beasley playing attacking-mids in a box midfield with Armas (!) and Zavagnin (!!) as the base of the midfield. Additionally, Convey provided width from left back, Hejduk from the right, and Mastroeni helped with smart distribution from center back.

Sadly, the dream midfield of Donovan-Beasley-Reyna-O'Brien never materialized, but I'd love to see us try this formation again. I think the timing is right with these friendlies:


We have potential base midfield options in Feilhaber, Clark, and Bradley.
We have good outside back options in Cherundolo, Spector, and Pearce.
With Bradley calling in perhaps every domestically-based forward option, there's a chance that he'll want to play two at a time with Donovan in the midfield.



2. Clint Dempsey is an enigma. Even after nearly two years with the national team, his best position is still up in the air. From what I've seen of Dempsey with the Revs and the national team, I think the position that suits his skills the best is a central midfielder in a 3-5-2. This would allow him to join the attack without being responsible for creating, and would allow him to display creativity with cover.

However, I don't think this is happening any time soon, because for one reason or another, we lack a true right wing in the midfield. Hell, Dempsey is #1 on the depth chart at right mid almost by default. I don't see Cherundolo slotting in as a wing back either.

I'd like to see if Dempsey can evolve into a box-to-box type midfielder who can play in a 4-4-2. I like to see him in the middle of the field: he has tenacity in the tackle and enough skill on the ball to find open spaces in tight spots.

I wonder if my two midfield experiements are mutually exclusive. Could a midfield of Donovan-Beasley-Clark-Dempsey work?

[Mike22]

i think you are using the word enticed wrongly. you might mean encouraged.

[sregis]

Sadly, the dream midfield of Donovan-Beasley-Reyna-O'Brien never materialized

world cup 2002?

[cpwilson80]

i think you are using the word enticed wrongly. you might mean encouraged.

I'm enticed because I think this promising roster selection gives us the best chance to try something new, both in terms of players and formations.

Now is the time - when the stakes are low - that we should experiment. If it shows promise, continue; if it fails, scrap it.

[cpwilson80]

world cup 2002?

I should have expanded on that thought: it never materialized as our go-to lineup. Even in WC 2002, we only had it for the South Korea match!

I remember an Arena quote a while back where he said he only had his first choice midfield for something like three of the games in the last cycle.

[sregis]

I should have expanded on that thought: it never materialized as our go-to lineup. Even in WC 2002, we only had it for the South Korea match!

I remember an Arena quote a while back where he said he only had his first choice midfield for something like three of the games in the last cycle.

indeed. one can only hope for:

1) a midfield that talented
and
2) such a midfield w/ fewer injuries

[CDM76]

Lots of interesting stuff here.


1. Donovan and Beasley as dual attacking-mids in a box midfield.
2. Dempsey in central midfield.

[snip]

I wonder if my two midfield experiements are mutually exclusive. Could a midfield of Donovan-Beasley-Clark-Dempsey work?
I don't see enough defense or distribution/play-making here.

You've got three guys (LD, DMB & Deuce) who all want to run at the defense with the ball. When LD's been asked to play-make he disappears as a goal scoring threat. We need LD being dangerous and attacking the goal or our offense stagnates.

One of our younger CMs (Feilhaber and Bradley seem to be the frontrunners) needs to step up and show they can distribute.

Or...

2. Clint Dempsey is an enigma. Even after nearly two years with the national team, his best position is still up in the air. From what I've seen of Dempsey with the Revs and the national team, I think the position that suits his skills the best is a central midfielder in a 3-5-2. This would allow him to join the attack without being responsible for creating, and would allow him to display creativity with cover.

[snip]

I'd like to see if Dempsey can evolve into a box-to-box type midfielder who can play in a 4-4-2. I like to see him in the middle of the field: he has tenacity in the tackle and enough skill on the ball to find open spaces in tight spots.I think the box-to-box player is what Coleman (Fulham's manager) is hoping to see.

Deuce appears to have all the tools to become a solid CM (true 2-way guy).

FSC's game selection hasn't permitted me to see many Fulham games lately but I really expect Clint to improve his passing and defense just because he wants to prove himself an every match guy in the EPL.

I see his natural postion as a CM working primarily from the right.

Right now, he's the top right of BB's box although I would pinch him to the center and let Dolo provide the width and crosses.

He could develop into the link midfielder in a Y (my longterm hope).

[RalleeMonkey]

I'd like to see the box tried again. Imo, LD & Beaz look much more effective when paired that way. It minimizes their mutual weakness: trying to do anything when the ball is at their feet and they're not moving (there's got to be a shorter way of saying this). It looked like they'd played together so much that, in that situation, they would make effective runs for each other, so that neither had to initiate an attack on the dribble. One would pass to the runner, and then they'd be on the move, where they're much more effective.

I mean, neither of these guys has that ability to be standing with the ball and take a touch our two that completely opens things up. (Cantona, El Pibe). They need to be moving when they get the ball. In the box they're positioned close enough that they'll almost always be able to play off of each other.

The problem is that w/o LD, it's a dead letter. The curious thing is whether it could work with Mapp, or Convey playing Beaz's role.

The other thing I'd like to see is us trying to develope a real center mid. Someone that can hold the ball, wait for numbers, then initiate an attack on the dribble or pass into someone's run. (yes, I know, a couple of months ago there was a big long thread on how this won't happen). There are a lot of young midfielders who might be able to develop into that guy. But, most of them are playing at pretty high level teams that won't be developing them in that direction. Which leads to . . . . Freddie. He's the only young U.S. midfielder who is on a team that says "you are going to be our attacking midfielder." So, for me, I'd say that right now Freddie has the inside track on being our CAM of the future, by virtue of his club situation.

[andrew]

I don't get why everyone is still excited about Beasley? The guy has proven to be an average attacking player at best, and over the past 2 years he has done nothing to prove his worth as a starter on this team. I would much rather give Mapp a solid chance on the left or in an attacking midfield position. He is extremely fast, and his technical ability with the ball is far superior to Beasley. His ability to break down a defense is greater than any player the US has right now.

[sregis]

I don't get why everyone is still excited about Beasley?

this board is full of people who question his place on the MNT.

[Martin Fischer]

I don't understand the Dempsey at center midfield argument at all. He did have success there with the Revs two years ago. But with the National Team, his success has all come at right midfield in a 4-4-2. Dempsey is an ideal right midfielder (which is not supposed to be a position that hugs the sideline and does nothing but cross), capable of going wide, but with his real strength cutting into the box. Additionally, Dempsey played mostly wide with the Revs last year, with good success once he snapped out of his "I want to leave MLS now" funk.

Dempsey is not a great distributor, doesn't move the ball that quickly and is at best getting isolated on defenders or getting into the box as a target for crosses. All of this can be done as an attacking midfielder (especially in a "box") in a 4-4-2, better than it can be done as a central holding or two-way midfielder.

[RalleeMonkey]

I don't understand the Dempsey at center midfield argument at all.

I think it's just a matter of people looking for someone/anyone to step up and be a backup/replacement for LD at CAM. There are no obvious options, so everyone that gets mentioned presently has deficiencies.

[Martin Fischer]

I think it's just a matter of people looking for someone/anyone to step up and be a backup/replacement for LD at CAM. There are no obvious options, so everyone that gets mentioned presently has deficiencies.

The options are guys like Feilhaber and Bradley that have to prove themselves still. Patience is hard I know.

[Maximum Optimal]

Whether it is a box, Y or empty bucket, the key to getting our midfield to work better is to have one of the deep-lying midfielders with good skills when it comes to holding and distributing the ball. So in these two upcoming games I'm mainly looking forward to what Feilhaber can do to make our midfield work more smoothly. I do like the idea of looking at Dempsey in that role too, even though he isn't the best passer or possession player. What you lose there, you make up in more attacking flair and unpredictabilty. I wouldn't close the book on the possibility that on balance we might gain more with Dempsey playing a box-to-box type role from central midfield.

[TimB4Last]

I was asked a question on the YA board, but my answer really belongs in a thread like this. Slightly truncated ...

[skip]

Feilhaber should start, in central midfield, alongside Ricardo Clark. I'm keeping my instructions - particularly in practice - to an absolute minimum, because I would very much like to see these two work out their own natural dynamic. I'll leave it to our BS panel of experts to sort out the boxes, diamonds and buckets and all their variants.

My instructions to Feilhaber are simple: "Be aggressive, win the ball, receive the ball and (look to) attack, swiftly, incisively. Push forward. Do not worry about making mistakes - the team will cover for you."

My instructions to Clark are also simple. "Benny's been instructed to take some chances and he's bound to make some mistakes. We're calling him a D-mid but - just between the two of us, and this information doesn't leave this room - he's a deep-lying A-mid. You are, in fact, a D-mid, and don't forget it."

**********

I'm not sure I've expressed myself very well, above. I project Feilhaber as an upgrade from Reyna - a high level of ball skill, vision and passing ability, but faster and more aggressive moving forward. I project Clark as an upgrade from Mastroeni - with admittedly less bite but more under control - in virtually all areas. I will accept that a rational person reading the above might dismiss it as 'wishful thinking.'

If you forced me to decide now about the 2010 team, I would build the team around these two. I would be pairing them whenever possible, and I would certainly start them in these next two upcoming friendlies.

{Back to real time.} Obviously we don't have to - and shouldn't - project all the way to 2010 right now, but such projections should inform all our choices at this point.

Anyway, we've got Clark and Feilhaber in central midfield, or Feilhaber and Clark if you prefer. Michael Bradley will also get some playing time here, as I want to see all three paired with each of the others at some point (soon).

What about the rest of midfield? You'll have to tell me about our defenders - particularly our outside defenders - first. Can they defend? If they can, than I'm looking hard at (outside) midfielders like Mapp and [highlight to reveal: Adu :D].* If they can't, then I need players like (an on-form) Beasley, ideally someone a bit larger, who can defend, chase back and cover a lot of ground - fast.

You'll also have to tell me about our forward line. Altidore's already on my line - but I've agreed to wait until August - so let's try Cooper for the moment. Who are we pairing him with, assuming we're playing two up front? LD or someone who's more of a traditional forward?

What are we doing with LD, btw? He has to play, but where? This is a central question that needs to be addressed. Please, let's not wait any longer.

Dempsey's out right, assuming he gains ground instead of losing ground over the next EPL season or two.

----------

* Can someone teach me that 'highlight to reveal' stuff? Sorry if that makes me sound illiterate.

[RalleeMonkey]

Patience is hard I know.

No sh*t. And, we have a little bit of time to be patient.

I was just answering your question - "why do people want to push Dempsey in at CAM?" If you didn't want to know the answer to why people were doing that, then don't ask it. But, don't try to attibute to me, what others are saying.

Btw, you left out Nguyen & Freddie as potential answers to the CAM question. And, like I said before, Freddie is the only one being fasttracked to being "the man" as a CAM, so he'll likely be our most viable option. Patience is good, but I don't think you want to go into WC10 with a CAM that only has one season of being a starting CAM for his club team. If that's what we have to do, that's what we have to do. But, it's not preferable.

Btw, your patience polemic could be used just about as readily in waiting on Dempsey to develop. I'd put him behind Feilhaber, Bradley, Nguyen, & Adu in the CAM race, especially since he's our only viable RM. But, with time, he might be the guy.

last btw. Here's my post from March 11, 2005, when people were trying to figure out where Dempsey fit in - before he was even tried at RM for the Nats:

"Imo, Dempsey is a good fit at right mid. Who knows if he crosses well - he really hasn't played wide much. But, if Eddie played LB & Cherundolo played RB we'd have 2 pretty darn crossers of the ball who could overlap. Beas, could definately protect the back when Eddie overlapped. Don't know about Clint.

Imo, this would be workable atleast for one game in '06


(Wolfe?Esko?other?) - - - - - EJ

- - - - - - - - - - - LD

Beaz - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Clint D.

- - - - - - - -Reyna or Mastro

Eddie or JOB - ? - - - - - ? - - - - - - - Little Steven"

Also, I was advocating Lewis at LB over a year before the WC. I had no idea Bruce would convert him at the last minute, & give him one friendly to get up to speed.

[cyberthoth]

No sh*t. And, we have a little bit of time to be patient.

Btw, you left out Nguyen & Freddie as potential answers to the CAM question. .

Has Nguyen played a meaningful game this season??? I like his potential but he's a LONG way from behing ahead of Dempsey at any position other than waterboy.

[Martin Fischer]

Rallee Monkey, sorry you took offense for some reason at my rhetorical device that I used to make the point that the only good reason that I see for this Dempsey to central a-mid theory is desperation and a lack of patience. He doesn't have the skills to excel at the position -- namely work-rate and distribution skills. His skills are attacking, not setting the table and filling gaps in the middle. There is a reason why Dempsey has rarely if ever played centrally in a 4-4-2 formation.

As to Adu, he is a possibility, we'll see how RSL uses him. I consider him more likely at an attacking right or left midfielder role than centrally with the USMNT, but I am interested to see how this year plays out. As for Nguyen, he is currently far from the USMNT and he has to get healthy, find a team and produce somewhere first.

[JohnR]

Has Nguyen played a meaningful game this season???

Sadly not, and I am told that in offering to loan him his employers have indicated he doesn't fit into their future plans.

He could bounce back, but it's not the typical resume of a future World Cup star. I wouldn't put a lot of money into the Lee Nguyen sweepstakes.

[CDM76]

* Can someone teach me that 'highlight to reveal' stuff? Sorry if that makes me sound illiterate.Type what you want to be "hidden".

Select it and change the font color to white.

White text on a white background is invisible until "selected" or "highlighted". Then it goes to reverse video and can be read.

Highlight to reveal: Here's an example.

Can't do anything about the expressives.