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kontrol-ball-Germany
15 Mar 2007, 08:14 PM
Given the success of the national side I find that Germany is written off on many occasions and many "football people" do not take Germany seriously. There are also undertones of other less accomplished national sides portraying they are better than Germany as if Germany would not stand a chance against them in a match.

Im gonna leave you with a few articles, please feel free to share your thoughts.

"Why Germany Won’t Win the World Cup


Mourinho’s white flag: Robert Huth

1. They’re too home-based

Most of the world’s best footballers earn their living in one of three domestic leagues: Spain’s La Liga; Italy’s Seria A; and the English Premiership. In other words, Germany’s Bundesliga is not one of them. Today you don’t expect the likes of Bayern Munich or Borussia Dortmund or Bayer Leverkeusen to be there in the final four of the European Champion’s League, never mind win the thing. So what’s this got to do with the World Cup?

Well, if you compare the current squads of the last tournament’s finalists, you’ll notice that pretty much of all of the Brazilian squad plays in one of those three leagues (perhaps one or two Bundesliga and Dutch Eredivisie players will make the cut). By contrast only two of the current German squad play outside of the Bundesliga — second-choice goalkeeper Jens Lehmann of Arsenal, and Chelsea clogger Robert Huth (who is like Jose Mourinho’s equivalent of the boxing coach’s towell, tossed into the game as a late substitute when he knows he’s beaten). If Coach Klinsmann has the sense to pick Liverpool’s own Didi Hamman, which currently seems unlikely, that would make three. And the only Bundesliga player attracting a major bid from the Big Leagues now is Michael Ballack, who on his day can be a midfield match winner but somehow lacks the majesty of a Lothar Matthaus (who, incidentally, at his peak was earning his wage at Italy’s Inter Milan, along with legendary striker Karl-Heinz Rummenige). Carsten Ramelow? Torsten Frings? Sebastian Deisler? Germany today simply doesn’t have the players that strike fear into their opponents. It’s a long-term trend. (More on this below.)

2. They Haven’t Been Tested in Real Competition

As hosts, they didn’t have to qualify for the tournament, so for the past four years they have been playing only friendlies, which these days are a bit of a joke. And frankly, they were fortunate to make the final last time around; they hardly looked like world beaters in Korea.

3. They Don’t Have a Serious Coach

Jurgen Klinsmann was a useful striker (although he was no Rummenige), but he’s never coached at club level. He’s taken on the German national team while continuing to live in sunny California. It’s hard to imagine him inspiring the sort of respect from the players that your typical Bundesliga authoritarian, such as a Otmar Hitzfeld or even some of the more established names of German football such as Beckenbauer, could command.

4. Yes, They’re at Home, But…

So are the Dutch. And the French. And Italians. And Poles. Hell, even the English will feel at home: Europe is very, very small, and all the European teams can expect masses of support in the stadium every time they play.

deisler
Depressive Deisler

5. Where’s the Hunger?

This is the long-term effect I was referring to above. By way of illustration, consider the fact that Sebastian Deisler spent most of last season out injured, depriving Bayern of the services of the most exciting young prospect in German football. His ailment? Depression. I have a feeling that depression, when it strikes Brazilian footballers at all, usually sets in only after they’re rich and famous and fat, and their careers are going off the boil as the tabloids pile on.

Call me essentialist, if you like, but I tend to think that there’s a certain class context to the production of soccer talent. Sure, great players can emerge from any class, but the general trend is that the combination of skill, strength, hunger and imagination that it takes to become a professional at the highest level is more prevalent among the more disenfranchised elements of society. A route out of povery, like boxing or basketball.

Watching kids start playing soccer here in the U.S. I’ve been struck by the fact that every kid brings their own ball. I’m pretty sure that when Ronaldinho was a kid in the favela, there was only ever one ball. And so when he managed to knick it off the feet of some rival, he quickly honed his abilities — the trickery, guile, exquisite ball control and the strength to ride out even the most brutal of playground tackles — to make sure he was going to keep that ball. Wait, we’re getting side tracked here.

My basic point being that Germany today is a kind of depressive middle class society, and its half century at the top of the global game may be coming to a close."
http://tonykaron.com/2006/04/05/why-germany-wont-win-the-world-cup/



Germany, you have a problem

By Gabriele Marcotti

EXACTLY FOUR MONTHS AND TWO days ago, German football seemed to have reached its highest point since the summer of 1990, when Franz Beckenbauer remarked famously that his country, already world champions, would become unstoppable after reunification with the East.
They had put on one of the best World Cups in recent history, they boasted the best football grounds in Europe (and they were always full) and Jürgen Klinsmann’s up-and-comers were in the World Cup semi-finals, having just knocked out Argentina, most people’s favourites.

It was supposed to be a new dawn. Instead, it was a false dawn. And only now is it becoming clear just how deep into the night German football has wandered.

Germany lost that semi-final, of course. Perhaps things would have been different if Klinsmann’s troops had been crowned world champions. Either way, it’s worth noting just how far the country has plummeted as a footballing power.

The Bundesliga sits fifth in the all-important Uefa country ranking, which determines the number of clubs a league can enter into the Champions League and Uefa Cup. The country ranking is based on a formula that takes into account the aggregate European results of a league over the past five seasons. Germany are perilously perched half a point ahead of Portugal and less than two points ahead of Romania. Theoretically, leagues in the Netherlands and Russia could overtake the Bundesliga this season, as well. Even if only two from the four leagues in the “chasing pack” pull ahead of Germany, the effect would be disastrous. The Bundesliga would be guaranteed only one place in the Champions League proper, plus another via the qualifying rounds. With two entrants it would be on a par with the likes of Ukraine, Bulgaria and Scotland.

Yet perhaps these results are not so surprising when one considers that in Uefa’s ranking of individual teams (also based on the past five years), Bayern Munich, the highest-ranked German side, sit in seventeenth place, behind — among others — Newcastle United, Villarreal, AS Roma and PSV Eindhoven. There are four German clubs in Uefa’s top 50; England has four in the top ten alone.

Footballing powers have ups and downs, of course, but Germany’s decline remains hard to explain. After all, this is Europe’s biggest country, boasting the biggest economy, as well as a per capita income that puts the Continent’s other large nations to shame.

It has the infrastructure and cultural conditions that ought to enable the sport to thrive: a long and glorious history, outstanding facilities at both professional and youth level and a genuine interest in the game. Indeed, in the latter category, the Germans are in a league of their own. The Bundesliga has far and away the highest average attendance in Europe, some 15 percentage points higher than the Barclays Premiership, despite the increased capacity this season at Old Trafford and the Emirates Stadium. Furthermore, its second division is also the top-ranked in Europe, some 10 per cent ahead of the Coca-Cola Championship.

It can count on fertile social conditions, as well. Germany is located at the centre of Europe and, unlike some other insular cultures one might name, it has been quick to absorb and adapt to foreign influences, particularly in football. And it has a large and diverse immigrant population that — as France showed a few years ago — can provide the manpower to create a footballing powerhouse.

Throw in the fact that Italian club football is financially moribund (not to mention its other, more serious, self-inflicted wounds) and that Le Championnat in France is seemingly unable to hang on to the talented footballers it produces and one might have thought that this would be an optimal time for Germany to challenge La Liga and the Premiership. Instead, the situation seemingly continues to degenerate.

Germans have questioned themselves long and hard, trying to find the reasons behind their footballing decline. Post-Bosman the blame was initially laid at the feet of foreigners, particularly cheap ones from impoverished Eastern neighbours. Leaving aside that Germany gleefully naturalised the better ones — Lukas Podolski, Miroslav Klose, et al — the argument proved to be flawed: England, Spain and Italy had as many, if not more, foreign imports and yet they continue to produce quality footballers.

The second theory, that German clubs are set up as “not-for-profit” social entities and, as such, cannot benefit from a stock market float or profligate owners such as Roman Abramovich or Massimo Moratti, which, in turn, means they cannot compete financially, makes somewhat more sense. And it’s true that it is stricter financial oversight in Germany that makes it more difficult for clubs to engage in “creative accounting” or run up hundreds of millions of euros of debt.

But this factor alone cannot explain the malaise. Even if German clubs cannot pay Premiership or La Liga wages, it doesn’t explain why Germany stopped producing the kind of players foreign clubs want to buy. If Germany were like France — that is, a league where teams cannot pay high wages but where they still produce good footballers — Michael Ballack, Robert Huth and Jens Lehmann would not be the only members of Klinsmann’s Word Cup squad plying their trade abroad.

The trendy explanation is that German society is simply too wealthy, fat and bloated to produce the kind of people hungry enough to become top professional footballers. Angela Merkel, the Chancellor, may be trying to cut their benefits, but after 50 years of a highly unionised welfare state, the working classes — the traditional reservoir of footballing talent in every nation — have either gone soft or joined the middle class.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,27-2439160,00.html

Lacavic
16 Mar 2007, 05:35 AM
thats bosman rule makes germany cant produce so much stars.
if you want to become a pro football player,you have to compete with all football players from the world.you can see england even want to recruit a forward in second league,holland want a player from Ivory Coast.italy recruits a angentina football player,while north europ dont need.how many germany players in germany league now?before 1995 thats most of,but now less than 40%,and they are home-based,so there are fewer players than before 1995 so fewer stars.its unfair that players from big league country seem to have little space to live.its the systems fault.
another reason is that traditional german football is body-based,but nowadays you can build your body with hormone.players from other country are much stronger than 20 years ago.and players from west africans is the strongest in the world.

Lacavic
16 Mar 2007, 06:03 AM
one more reason is that why clubs develop players now?let them go to bayern without transfer fees?all german talent are traffickling by bayern when they are sill young so how other clubs compete with bayern?only one method thats what does arsenal do,importing young players from other country.for example if one place have only 50$,40$ is taken away buy bayern so if you have compete with bayern how to do?take money from other place.
before bosman if clubs invest 90% on player develop but now club must invest 60% on young players traffickling so only 30% left to develop young players the level is decreasing is reasonable.importing young players is cheaper and need less energy so why develp?but if all clubs think like that,so which club develop players potential?

home-based players are hard for club to control,if clubs importing a foreign player where is the player to go?only in club.if they dont listen to club,they will be punished.thats completely human-traffickling.

home-based players are lazy and arent long for become a footballer,for foreign player if they are quit by club,they have the risk ending up in the street.so they can be overtrained.

i dont find more reasons why club develp german talents.you can point out.

"Eisenfuß" Eilts
16 Mar 2007, 06:17 AM
German teams had the greatest sucesses,
when they were written off by the "experts". ;)

But now to the articles.
The first article was written before the WC
and the cup proved the first author wrong.
I don´t want to blame him, many people
had this feeling before the cup, but you could
see last summer, that things in football don´t
go the way the "experts" expect them to go
and that makes football interesting.

In the second article the other author explains
some reasons for the decline of the league
in the first years of the new century.

But he mixxed two different things, the NT and the league.
And the end of the 90s the league was at its best, but the NT
was weak, they got outplayed by teams like Colombia or USA
and totally sucked at EC 2000.
This had to do the fact, that at that time in the BL there played
many solid, experienced players, but they used the spots
young talents normally need.
Furthermore the youth education was bad, so only a few young talents
had the class to make the jump into the BL.
That was bad for the NT, but the
league was close to becoming 1st in UEFA 5 years ranking.
After EC 2000 the clubs changed the transfer policy and
started investing money in better education of youth players.
But when you put money in youth educating, you get the profits
only some years later (look, how many talents now play BL).
But to the decline of the league.
A big reason for it is IMO the collapse of Premiere
(German pay-tv company) combined with the investment policy
of many clubs in the years before. Many clubs paid sucess with depts
in the late 90s, early 2000s and when they only received 1/3 of the tv money
the got the season before, these clubs also collapsed or get kept alive (BVB).
They couldn´t pay the wages they paid the seasons before
and so many quality players left the league and the BL clubs
also lost depth in squad.
This is not easy for any league. In the last seasons the situation improved a bit,
but with all this financial trouble the BL lost about 5 years to the other big leagues.

Alex_K
16 Mar 2007, 06:56 AM
thats bosman rule makes germany cant produce so much stars.
if you want to become a pro football player,you have to compete with all football players from the world.you can see england even want to recruit a forward in second league,holland want a player from Ivory Coast.italy recruits a angentina football player,while north europ dont need.how many germany players in germany league now?before 1995 thats most of,but now less than 40%,and they are home-based,so there are fewer players than before 1995 so fewer stars.its unfair that players from big league country seem to have little space to live.its the systems fault.
another reason is that traditional german football is body-based,but nowadays you can build your body with hormone.players from other country are much stronger than 20 years ago.and players from west africans is the strongest in the world.

You're becoming the pc4th of the Bosman rule - you should also try to do some research instead of repeting old clichés in every post. Every Bundesliga club needs to have 12 German players in it's squad, btw.

F96
16 Mar 2007, 09:33 AM
I kinda managed to put him on ignore.

Alex_K
16 Mar 2007, 09:37 AM
I kinda managed to put him on ignore.

Well, I never use cookies ;).

Lacavic
17 Mar 2007, 07:58 PM
I kinda managed to put him on ignore.
i post so many,its hard.:)

"Eisenfuß" Eilts
18 Mar 2007, 05:16 AM
You're becoming the pc4th of the Bosman rule - you should also try to do some research instead of repeting old clichés in every post. Every Bundesliga club needs to have 12 German players in it's squad, btw.

And from next season on additional to this a specific number
of players from its own youth.

Alois12
18 Mar 2007, 12:48 PM
I possibly live at the heart of German criticism and that's England. I do take it Germany has been bad at 1998 and euro 2000 and 2004. But England were shit then aswell. Germany is always gonna be a team that has potential for the final in every world cup. England havn't reached one since 1966 I guess.

So all the critism can just be classified as pure jealousy. That's how I see it. On paper we are still the 2nd best in Europe and the 3rd best in the world. It all has to do with how many stars you have above your badge. :rolleyes:

Little fairy
18 Mar 2007, 04:50 PM
Pity is given to you freely but jealousy you have to earn hard :D :cool:

benztown
25 Mar 2007, 03:33 PM
In Germany there's just no traditionally big market for pay TV (=less TV money). People either go to the stadium (hence the high attendance) or they listen to the radio and watch the "Sportschau".

The only way out of this would be to dramatically increase ticket prices and get rid of the "Sportschau", but would this be worth it? I don't think so. I don't want a situation like the one in Italy where the stadiums are empty and every top team has its own pay TV station.

Pakalolo
26 Mar 2007, 06:36 AM
Why are people always mixing up league play and national team play. It's true that the BuLi is at an all time low atm, but our national team is one of the best in recent memory. I'm really not afraid about our future. The BuLi on the other hand... :o

ForeverRed
26 Mar 2007, 06:05 PM
It's a shame, Germany will always be underrated in my opinion.

Heck, I still hear sooo many Portugese, English etc. who don't want to give Germany any credit for their WC performance. The worst is the arguement that the 3rd place game was meaningless to Portugal so they didn't try and had it been a semi-final or the final Portugal would have won for sure. Absolutley ridiculous.

People are arseholes.

AfrcnHrbMan
26 Mar 2007, 10:42 PM
Germany has looked the most dangerous team in europe since the world cup. I would hate to have les bleus play them right now. Great game against the czech s, you precision on attack and fluidity amazes me.

squidward123
27 Mar 2007, 01:54 AM
forevered: you mean english and portuguese people in NYC tell you that?

afrcnhrbman : thanks for the compliments. It's all true. But I really rate les bleus and I think it'd be an even matchup with germany juuust winning maybe. They're actually the team I support if germany aren't there. I expect germany, france and portugal to be the strongest for euro2008, possibly in that order. Italy too but they don't seem to care about the euros and use it as a chance to build for world cups.

domingo
27 Mar 2007, 09:31 AM
Our NT is great at the moment and I see a bright future for us.
Funny how many people from other countries laugh about us. Some English begin to realise that we are better now though. Even though they only admit it in private and when they forget you are German (after a few pints).

The BuLi is NOT at an all time low. I would say this was maybe 2 years ago and we are currently improving.

2 years ago I was desperate about German football in general.Now I cannot wait playing England at Wembley. Hope the clubs do well in Uefa competitions.

ForeverRed
27 Mar 2007, 02:32 PM
forevered: you mean english and portuguese people in NYC tell you that?

afrcnhrbman : thanks for the compliments. It's all true. But I really rate les bleus and I think it'd be an even matchup with germany juuust winning maybe. They're actually the team I support if germany aren't there. I expect germany, france and portugal to be the strongest for euro2008, possibly in that order. Italy too but they don't seem to care about the euros and use it as a chance to build for world cups.

Along with people here in NYC, plenty here on BS do as well...it's ridiculous.

France would be the second team I support as well, I hope they can make up for Zidane's loss and get back on form and comfortably win their group. They've got some good compeition there.

Ceres
29 Mar 2007, 10:12 AM
I think Danes in general used to respect the German NT, I surely did... but after the past few days events your NT has lost alot of credit in Denmark and not earned any friends..
.

IlTedesco
29 Mar 2007, 10:17 AM
Haha. DF, you may wanna close that one too before it gets ugly...

;):D