How badly does an England starter have to play before being benched?

[AnyLuckForEngland?]

It looks like Frank Lampard is going to be named to the starting lineup against Israel.

Are starting spots sacred? How badly does someone have to play to at least be benched as a wake up call that lacklustre play is unacceptable? Even as a message, why not bench him once and see how the midfield operates without him for 90 minutes?

[three lions]

It looks like Frank Lampard is going to be named to the starting lineup against Israel.

Are starting spots sacred? How badly does someone have to play to at least be benched as a wake up call that lacklustre play is unacceptable? Even as a message, why not bench him once and see how the midfield operates without him for 90 minutes?

It depends on who the manager is.

[lanman]

Beckham managed a couple of years of minimal contributions without even the threat of being left out. If you're a big name player then probably only injury, suspension oir some tabloid scandal is likely to have an impact.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Beckham was captain and you only really had SWP as a back-up option. What is Lampard's excuse?

[comme]

Beckham was captain and you only really had SWP as a back-up option. What is Lampard's excuse?

That's he's been the best English midfielder by a distance this season, and that he has been for years now?

That without him we have struggled to qualify for the WC?

Frank had a disappointing WC, but he is still a massively important player for the team. No-one seems to suggest dropping Gerrard, despite him doing sweet FA for England.

[Harry Boulton]

I can't think of many players who have actually justified their England places. All of the midfield have been p!ss poor. Rio has been hit'n'miss, Terry has been great, Gary Neville has been consistant, and Rooney has been so-so.

The rest have been hot and cold for some time.

Even as an Englishman, I am not ashamed to admit that our team is vastly over rated.............

[thebigman]

in klampards defence hes been decent lately

either he or gerrard must be dropped and play a dm in the middle as everyone knows

will mcsven do this? course not cus hes an idiot

[dustcowpoke]

Even as an Englishman, I am not ashamed to admit that our team is vastly over rated.............

Not vastly over-rated. England are definately one of the top 8 sides in the world, but the media thinks they should win every World Cup.

[Prenn]

but the media thinks they should win every World Cup.

No they don't.

[Karloski]

5 own goals
4 sneaky elbows
3 blatent dives
2 yellow cards..
..and a headbutt planted on the Referee.

During a game, might make McLaren consider their place in the first team. Titus Bramble isn't in the first team though so that's unlikely to ever happen.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

That's he's been the best English midfielder by a distance this season, and that he has been for years now?

That without him we have struggled to qualify for the WC?

Frank had a disappointing WC, but he is still a massively important player for the team. No-one seems to suggest dropping Gerrard, despite him doing sweet FA for England.

Gerrard was better last season and Scholes better this season but, regardless, the problem is Lampard not being able to adjust to the system England uses. Gerrard is the one who ultimately suffers as Lampard is given a free ride and Gerrard, who was initially asked to cover, is now played out of his natural position. Lampard, when in form, gets you goals but does little else. If he is not playing well then England are playing with 10 men. There needs to be some form of accountablity for when players are not playing well. England have several midfield options to call on but they are not given a chance because Lampard always plays and everyone else gets messed around to accomodate him.

I'm glad people are sticking with Gerrard, since they clearly didn't do likewise when Scholes was shunted out of position to allow Lampard into the side in the first place. One can only wonder what further midfield mess McSven would have created had Scholes accepted any of his calls to return to the NT.

[schafer]

Given his recent form for England, I'm not against Lampard being dropped. However, to claim that Gerrard's play suffers as a result of him being played out of his 'natural' position seems odd, considering that Gerrard played so well last season on the right hand side for Liverpool, and hasn't come close to replicating that form on the right for England.

[three lions]

Given his recent form for England, I'm not against Lampard being dropped. However, to claim that Gerrard's play suffers as a result of him being played out of his 'natural' position seems odd, considering that Gerrard played so well last season on the right hand side for Liverpool, and hasn't come close to replicating that form on the right for England.

I believe the key is who we have in the game as the workhorse defensive midfielder. If Carrick is in, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Slow, and only offers the nice passing to the game.. If it's Hargreaves, he is a catalyst, relentless work rate, and takes pressure off of the rest of the midfield. Lampard and Carrick together is a nightmare..

[thebigman]

i think generally people accept hargreaves as the number 1 starting central midfield role OVER gerrard and lamps

i think carrick and hargreaves could work but not carrick as a dm with gerr/lamps

i personally would play hargreaves and gerrard and 2 wingers but we know logic defeats mcsven

[jpick]

Not vastly over-rated. England are definately one of the top 8 sides in the world, but the media thinks they should win every World Cup.

No they don't.

If I remember correctly, this statement almost sent prenn into an apoplectic fit after the world cup, and he was passing out more cards than Ivanov during the netherlands-portugal game :p .

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Given his recent form for England, I'm not against Lampard being dropped. However, to claim that Gerrard's play suffers as a result of him being played out of his 'natural' position seems odd, considering that Gerrard played so well last season on the right hand side for Liverpool, and hasn't come close to replicating that form on the right for England.

The Liverpool system allows him to roam and come in centrally. For England it doesn't work because he runs into Rooney or Lampard.

I believe the key is who we have in the game as the workhorse defensive midfielder. If Carrick is in, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Slow, and only offers the nice passing to the game.. If it's Hargreaves, he is a catalyst, relentless work rate, and takes pressure off of the rest of the midfield. Lampard and Carrick together is a nightmare..

Carrick offers playmaking from deep, like a Xabi Alonso or Pirlo. The problem is positioning aside, he is not and will never be a defensive midfielder. It's bad enough forcing him to play in that role and even worse when it results in Carrick, Lampard and Gerrard all standing in roughly the same area in midfield wanting the ball to distribute. Even if Carrick was used correctly he would suffer as the movement from England is awful. It forces him to hold onto the ball looking for an outlet which never comes, forcing him to hold onto the ball and turn around to play it back. That's when the ball is lost and the ignorant masses wrongly attack Carrick. To utilise a player like Carrick you either need great movement and very intelligent players like at Man Utd or midfield protection like at Spurs (Davids protecting and Jenas hustling). England offers neither.

[yasik19]

answer is: what is play like Beckham.

(this doesn't mean Beckham is bad or should have been dropped or the opposite of either, but it answers the question directly).

[three lions]

The Liverpool system allows him to roam and come in centrally. For England it doesn't work because he runs into Rooney or Lampard.



Carrick offers playmaking from deep, like a Xabi Alonso or Pirlo. The problem is positioning aside, he is not and will never be a defensive midfielder. It's bad enough forcing him to play in that role and even worse when it results in Carrick, Lampard and Gerrard all standing in roughly the same area in midfield wanting the ball to distribute. Even if Carrick was used correctly he would suffer as the movement from England is awful. It forces him to hold onto the ball looking for an outlet which never comes, forcing him to hold onto the ball and turn around to play it back. That's when the ball is lost and the ignorant masses wrongly attack Carrick. To utilise a player like Carrick you either need great movement and very intelligent players like at Man Utd or midfield protection like at Spurs (Davids protecting and Jenas hustling). England offers neither.

Hargreaves in and Carrick out... That's how you solve that problem.. It's called hustle.. Hargreaves has it, Carrick doesn't...

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I'm not disputing the fact that playing a defensive midfielder in defensive midfield would work. Unfortunately it doesn't solve the problem of Lampard still playing and that is the real issue, not continued abuse towards Carrick when he is being asked to play out of position and in an unfamiliar role.

[three lions]

It doesn't solve the problem of Lampard still playing.

That's true...But I think Lampard will work better with Hargreaves..