Sit and Wonder

[erictheking]

I was watching the Chelsea v Spurs game yesterday and Kalou got booked for attempting to score with his hand.

I didn't have much to do at the time so it got me wondering why attempting to save a goal with your hand is a sending off and attempting to score a goal with your hand is only a booking. Surely they are the same thing just a different ends of the pitch.

[USSF REF]

I was watching the Chelsea v Spurs game yesterday and Kalou got booked for attempting to score with his hand.

I didn't have much to do at the time so it got me wondering why attempting to save a goal with your hand is a sending off and attempting to score a goal with your hand is only a booking. Surely they are the same thing just a different ends of the pitch.

Not the same.

In the case where an attacker is using his hand to score the assumption is that he will be caught and thus he can never score from doing this. He must be cautioned but no goal will be added. (Of course if he gets away with it, that is a different story a la "el mano de Dios"). Basically, that player is not changing the score line of the match.

On the other hand a player who prevents a goal by using his hand has actually prevented the score from changing lawfully. Some argue why a send off when the attackers will get a PK in return - the thing is a penalty can be missed. If the player does miss the penalty the orignial culprit succeeds in unjustly taking a goal away from the opponents. Thus, the sanction against the violator must be that severe.

[mw26]

preventing a goal takes away a goal from the opponent. while its against the odds, a pk can be missed. if caught, attempting to score with the hand will have no influence on the score.

[Ref Flunkie]

Also, if you want the option to RC a player for trying to score with his hand, you have to judge intent. In the DOGSO-H instance, you are not judging intent, simply that he did in fact DOGSO.

[MasterShake29]

I was watching the Chelsea v Spurs game yesterday and Kalou got booked for attempting to score with his hand.

I didn't have much to do at the time so it got me wondering why attempting to save a goal with your hand is a sending off and attempting to score a goal with your hand is only a booking. Surely they are the same thing just a different ends of the pitch.

You're not sent off for attempting to prevent a goal with your hand unless you're actually successful.

If you fail, it's only a yellow card offense, as you can't be sent off for denial of obvious goal scoring opportunity if you, well, didn't deny the opportunity.

[chrisrun]

I was watching the Chelsea v Spurs game yesterday and Kalou got booked for attempting to score with his hand.

I didn't have much to do at the time so it got me wondering why attempting to save a goal with your hand is a sending off and attempting to score a goal with your hand is only a booking. Surely they are the same thing just a different ends of the pitch.

If an attacker scores, the ball CAN be taken out of the net and no goal is recorded.

If a defender blocks a ball, the ball CAN NOT be put in the net and a goal recorded.

[macheath]

Also, if you want the option to RC a player for trying to score with his hand, you have to judge intent. In the DOGSO-H instance, you are not judging intent, simply that he did in fact DOGSO.

Is there any scenario where, just for that action alone, you could red card an attacker for using the hand to score? I can't think of one. You could do two yellows if you really wanted the send off, but absent one of the sending off fouls, don't think you could ever send off for scoring with the hand alone.

[chrisrun]

Is there any scenario where, just for that action alone, you could red card an attacker for using the hand to score? I can't think of one. You could do two yellows if you really wanted the send off, but absent one of the sending off fouls, don't think you could ever send off for scoring with the hand alone.

It's spelled out in the LOTG Addtional Instructions that a caution is given when a player "attempts to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball."

[whistleblowerusa]

It's spelled out in the LOTG Addtional Instructions that a caution is given when a player "attempts to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball."
A few years ago it used to be a send off for using a hand to score a goal. Not anymore.

[MassachusettsRef]

A few years ago it used to be a send off for using a hand to score a goal. Not anymore.I'm almost certain that that has never been true under FIFA. Do you have any cites/evidence?

[whistleblowerusa]

I'm almost certain that that has never been true under FIFA. Do you have any cites/evidence?You may need to look back into the 1991 or before law book or material. You want to know, you can do the research. You don't know everything MassRef.

[GKbenji]

You may need to look back into the 1991 or before law book or material. You want to know, you can do the research. You don't know everything MassRef.

I am of the same mind as MassRef, I don't believe that has ever been specified a send-off, and certainly not just a "few years ago".

The 1991 Law change was to specify a red card for denying a goal or goalscoring opportunity, not for attempting to score one. See for yourself here (http://www.fifa.com/en/history/history/0,1283,2,00.html).

[MassachusettsRef]

You may need to look back into the 1991 or before law book or material. You want to know, you can do the research. You don't know everything MassRef.Hold on. I have to do the research to prove your assertion wrong? Usually people have to put forth evidence to support claims that they make.

And it's interesting that I might have to look back prior to 1991--I didn't realize 16+ years constituted "a few." Also, considering the fact that DOGSO didn't even become an automatic red card until after WC90, it seems highly unlikely that you're even right about that.

Oh, I almost forgot. Since the research involved in proving you wrong is so easy to conduct, I took the liberty of doing it, solely because I appreciate the condescending attitude so much: http://www.fifa.com/en/history/history/0,1283,2,00.html (unless, of course, you can magically show where in that document it says that it was ever a send off for scoring a goal deliberately with your hand--or you try to claim that such a law change wouldn't be worthy of inclusion in such a document).

[USSF REF]

You may need to look back into the 1991 or before law book or material. You want to know, you can do the research. You don't know everything MassRef.

I don't know if that was a really fair shot at MassRef. His question is legit.

I don't recall in my studies of the history of the laws of the game that this was ever the case either. Now, I'm not saying you're wrong - I just personally never heard it.

Not that it really matters all that much considering that we all know the way the law is now.

[whistleblowerusa]

Hold on. I have to do the research to prove your assertion wrong? Usually people have to put forth evidence to support claims that they make.

And it's interesting that I might have to look back prior to 1991--I didn't realize 16+ years constituted "a few." Also, considering the fact that DOGSO didn't even become an automatic red card until after WC90, it seems highly unlikely that you're even right about that.

Oh, I almost forgot. Since the research involved in proving you wrong is so easy to conduct, I took the liberty of doing it, solely because I appreciate the condescending attitude so much: http://www.fifa.com/en/history/history/0,1283,2,00.html (unless, of course, you can magically show where in that document it says that it was ever a send off for scoring a goal deliberately with your hand--or you try to claim that such a law change wouldn't be worthy of inclusion in such a document).
I believe it was considered as serious foul play (not only what we consider serious foul play to be now) back then. And may have been an instruction and not written into the laws smarty pants.

[MassachusettsRef]

I'm not quite sure where this animosity developed from, but I'll conclude by saying that, if a red card for handling to score a goal was ever a red card offence then it would be in that document linked to above (even if it wasn't written into the laws--other major changes/decisions/experiments are listed there).

You made a point that I doubted and I asked for evidence; it appears that you don't have that evidence. I'll let the rest of the exchange speak for itself.

[whistleblowerusa]

I'm not quite sure where this animosity developed from, but I'll conclude by saying that, if a red card for handling to score a goal was ever a red card offence then it would be in that document linked to above (even if it wasn't written into the laws--other major changes/decisions/experiments are listed there).

You made a point that I doubted and I asked for evidence; it appears that you don't have that evidence. I'll let the rest of the exchange speak for itself.
I don't believe all changes would be there. I am looking for my old green copy of the Q&A. I am positive that it was a send off at that time.
I wouldn't have minded a question of doubt but when you demand evidence as though you know so much more it would make anyone defensive.I also said I believe that it was so. I have been around a little more than you have. There was not as much paperwork and materials back then. It doesn't mean that it was as you say because the historical law changes don't list it. It may have been an interpretation much like what was changed with restarts on when a sub comes onto the field of play.
Maybe you should ask someone like Mr. Bratsis.

[Justin Z]

Whether "demanding" or simply asking for evidence, that's pretty much how things work. The scientific method, law, medicine etc. -- all of these rely on people citing their assertions -- you know, backing things up. Otherwise it would be a free-for-all. When you're dealing with codified Laws as in soccer, it seems like a similar approach is at worst, cautious and at best, wise.

I think that you've decided to pick a fight with someone who's simply asked you to back up what you've said (especially since, obviously, it isn't common knowledge) is ridiculous and petty.

[bluedevils]

This has been a humorous and slightly educational thread. Most of all, I'm glad to see a good skirmish like this that does NOT involve me!

[Alberto]

I'm a lot older than most here, and I never recall a player being sent off for handling for redirecting a ball into the opponents goal. This goes back to watching World Cup, English First Division, Bundesliga and Serie A matches from the early 1970's forward.