Copa vs Gold Cup

[Maximum Optimal]

Elo ratings of our three first-round opponents in Copa: 4, 28 and 32.
Elo ratings of our three first-round opponents in the Gold Cup: 76, 77, 116

That's why it's such a plus playing in Copa! We might go three and out (and I'm sure this will result in the usual baying around here for various people's heads), but the team will benefit a lot more from that than outscoring our Gold Cup first round opponents by 10-0, or whatever.

[Ringo]

but what will the benefit be in two years. win copa, stay at home and pat ourselves on the back. win gold cup, go to the confed cup in SA right before the WC to play other conferedation winners. long term, a gold cup win could be more important.
but really, i wouldn't complain if we won the copa. won't happen. but, you know, I'd be all right with it. ;)

[CDM76]

Elo ratings of our three first-round opponents in Copa: 4, 28 and 32.
Elo ratings of our three first-round opponents in the Gold Cup: 76, 77, 116

That's why it's such a plus playing in Copa! We might go three and out (and I'm sure this will result in the usual baying around here for various people's heads), but the team will benefit a lot more from that than outscoring our Gold Cup first round opponents by 10-0, or whatever.This is why I recommend a 1A/1B type of approach instead of an A Team to the GC and a B Team to the CA.

The idea is take the depth chart and put the top 2 on the depth chart on different teams, then do the same with the second 2, instead of Nos 1 & 2 going to the A Team and Nos 3 & 4 going to the B Team. Ideally, Team 1A gets Nos 1 & 4 and Team 1B gets Nos 2 & 3 but it doesn't have to be that exact (and probably shouldn't be).

Since the CA comes first, use primarily our MLS players for the CA. It gives the guys who get less exposure to the pressure of the higher expectations and more vocal crowds of Europe a chance to experience the international game.

For GC, focus on the YAs. They get a couple of weeks to recover from the Euro season and spend their break in the States instead of Venezuela. We end up with a very solid back line, a good midfield and some young up'n comers striking (plus perhaps a farewell/thank you for McBride).

We probably end up with a stronger side for the GC but as prior argued that positions us better for WC10 assuming we qualify for the confed cup.

[Galaxian]

but what will the benefit be in two years. win copa, stay at home and pat ourselves on the back. win gold cup, go to the confed cup in SA right before the WC to play other conferedation winners. long term, a gold cup win could be more important.
but really, i wouldn't complain if we won the copa. won't happen. but, you know, I'd be all right with it. ;)

Exactly.

If we dont win the Copa its not the end of the world , we will still have a chance to be in it in 08 ( if the rumors are true about it being held next year ) . But if we lose Gold Cup , we will lose a very valuable tournament right before the next world cup.

Right now we need to look at a broad range of players , in 09 , it will be much more specific as we are nearling the world cup.

[robchap628]

We need to win the Gold Cup in order to qualify for the confederations cup, however the Copa provides a great oppurtunity to test some of our players and hopefully make them better. If I were Bradley I'd call in a lot of vets, especially guys who are still national team material now but may be too old for the WC and use them in Gold Cup, while giving some of our younger players a shot in the Copa.

[Mr Martin]

I understand the USSF need to commit to the Gold Cup as our confederation championship. I also understand the side benefit that if we win the Gold Cup, we get a spot in the Confederations Cup in 09. These are perfectly reasonable points.

However, I also find it more than a little bit ironic that, if one of the main priorities for the US is to develop our top players by facing the very best opponents possible, that we find ourselves de-emphasizing the Copa America in favor of the Gold Cup.

The Copa is one of the most challenging tournaments the US could ever get into. It is precisely the kind of challenge our best players need. There it is, an elite tournament right before us, and yet we seem to be forced into taking the B-team to the Copa in favor of the 3d rate Gold Cup, in order to maybe get a bid to the second rate Confederations Cup.

It is ironic.

I rate the Copa as the world's 3d toughest tournament, after the World Cup and the European Championships. Since the US can't get into the Euro's the Copa is in reality the 2nd strongest competition the US could ever hope to participate in. Yet here we are taking the B-team.

I understand the counter argument, and I understand why the US will almost certainly end up with most of its better players in the Gold Cup. But I am frustrated by the self-defeating irony of it all.

[Adam Zebrowski]

copa america gives bradley a chance to look at some 2nd line talent, and see who steps up against a quality level of play...

i do think it's win/win, as we can get a handful of guys the exposure needed to raise their games, just so they can challenge for 1st team play...

a guy like cooper or mapp....how can they perform in copa america...will it make them ready for wcq process....

add bornstein to that list too...

i'm sure others can name more guys who'd benefit from a copa america too...

[bltleo]

what about to set big goal to win both Copa and Gold Cup?...well Gold Cup sounds more nice than Copa...but I think if you win the tournament that allow you to play in Confed cup, like "small World cup", it will be good for you to compete yourself against another big candidates for world cup 2010.....

but winning Copa has also something special:)

which of these cups is similar to European Cup?..Gold cup???..

anyway I think it is great you play in bogh Copa and Gold Cup, you have really good chance to prepare for world cup, to compete against other teams etc...
then you should put some friendlies against top european teams and you are perfect prepared for next world cup...and believe me, you will do this better than last world cup....my predicion is at least quarterfinale...or until you meet us Germans:)..hops sorry for my arrogance again.

[bltleo]

what I personally would like is mix European team against American team - something like Euro-American cup:)....but it is only fantasy....I think this way USA would have much more chance to play against european teams...I would like such cup....

one thing I tell you...US soccer has big future...it is worth to invest in it.....one day you might become our big competition...so we need to watch you closely:)

we are preparing for European cup..next big game for Germany is game against Czech (24 March).....

finally we become more action in soccer: gold cup, Copa..European cup!!!!.

[Adam Zebrowski]

gold cup is like the euro cup, except it's for concacaf...

copa america is like euro cup, except it's for south american teams...

now, south america invites usa and mexico to play in south america...

whoever wins gold cup, goes to play in confed cup...

if usa or mexico wins copa america, they DO NOT go to confed cup...

ONLY BEST placed south american team goes to confed cup...

usa will use BEST team at gold cup

[bltleo]

gold cup is like the euro cup, except it's for concacaf...

copa america is like euro cup, except it's for south american teams...

now, south america invites usa and mexico to play in south america...

whoever wins gold cup, goes to play in confed cup...

if usa or mexico wins copa america, they DO NOT go to confed cup...

ONLY BEST placed south american team goes to confed cup...

usa will use BEST team at gold cup


why South american invites USA and Mexido to play in South America?
is this because they know that both are strongest teams in Central America?
is that only like "joke" competition...so if USA would win Copa and Brazil and Argentina would be after USA, Brazil and Argentina would go to Confedcup and USA not..

so USA need to win Gold Cup..but this is not big deal for you..the only real competition is Mexico..you will end as 1rd in Gold Cup...I believe in this..was not USA first last year before world cup? and you did Mexico many times.

you can also beat Brazil....Argentina will be more difficult - until you try to win on penalties (it is their weakness:).....pssss

[DCFAN96]

Do we really need to keep discussing this topic?

Competition
Copa America>>>>>Gold Cup

Prestige/Respect
Copa America >> Gold Cup

Importance for the US
Gold Cup >>>>> Copa America

I don't think anyone is arguing that Gold Cup is better competition or tourney. We all know that playing Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, etc will be a great experience for our players but bottomline is we NEED to qualify for the Confed Cup, we cannot risk sending our B team to the Gold Cup and losing. Its just poor timing, and unfortunately its always gonna be that we since the CA will now always take place the same year as the Gold Cup.

[Adam Zebrowski]

costa rica is a very good team...

in world cup play they have a very good record against european teams....

they are much better than europeans think they are....

usa has never beaten costa rica in saprissa....

in fact, costa rica is the ONLY team ever to beat mexico at azteca during the qualifying for 2002 world cup

[XYZ123456]

The Copa is one of the most challenging tournaments the US could ever get into. It is precisely the kind of challenge our best players need. There it is, an elite tournament right before us, and yet we seem to be forced into taking the B-team to the Copa in favor of the 3d rate Gold Cup, in order to maybe get a bid to the second rate Confederations Cup.Copa America is not an elite tournament. It could be if they only held it once every 4 years and each nation took it seriously and sent their A teams but they don't. Brazil and Argentina still send good sides but they're not even close to elite.

Fifa is improving the Confed Cup and it's certainly not 2nd rate in comparison to Copa. The confed cup will be better competition if the US is in a possible group of Italy, Brazil, and Ivory Coast than what they will face in Copa. It's all dependant on the draw.

Copa is a nice testing ground but it's not an elite or important tournament.

[Marko72]

This is why I recommend a 1A/1B type of approach instead of an A Team to the GC and a B Team to the CA.

The idea is take the depth chart and put the top 2 on the depth chart on different teams, then do the same with the second 2, instead of Nos 1 & 2 going to the A Team and Nos 3 & 4 going to the B Team. Ideally, Team 1A gets Nos 1 & 4 and Team 1B gets Nos 2 & 3 but it doesn't have to be that exact (and probably shouldn't be).

Since the CA comes first, use primarily our MLS players for the CA. It gives the guys who get less exposure to the pressure of the higher expectations and more vocal crowds of Europe a chance to experience the international game.

For GC, focus on the YAs. They get a couple of weeks to recover from the Euro season and spend their break in the States instead of Venezuela. We end up with a very solid back line, a good midfield and some young up'n comers striking (plus perhaps a farewell/thank you for McBride).

We probably end up with a stronger side for the GC but as prior argued that positions us better for WC10 assuming we qualify for the confed cup.

I agree with this in principle, but as I believe that winning the GC is more important in the long run, and the Copa more of a morale/bragging rights thing (coupled with a real experience opportunity, which should not be underestimated), I think that in most cases I'd send the #1 guy to the GC and the #2 guy (who in most cases this type of experience could do some real, tangible good), as well as some of the more talented but less established YAs (somebody like Spector comes to mind) to the Copa. Of course team chemistry and schedules have something to do with this. In any case, the #1 keeper (Howard) and the #1 scorer (at this point, Donovan) go to the Gold Cup, IMO.

[sidefootsitter]

I agree with this in principle, but as I believe that winning the GC is more important in the long run... But we know nothing about 2009 right now.

Will there be a Confed Cup?

Where will it be held?

Will the South Africans be ready to stage it?

Who will qualify?

Which team will send which players?

In other words, the 'future" is so ill defined at this point, it's far preferable to begin separating wheat from chaff ASAP ... and you ain't gonna do it at the Gold Cup.

[Tonerl]

But we know nothing about 2009 right now.

Will there be a Confed Cup?

Where will it be held?

Will the South Africans be ready to stage it?

Who will qualify?

Which team will send which players?

In other words, the 'future" is so ill defined at this point, it's far preferable to begin separating wheat from chaff ASAP ... and you ain't gonna do it at the Gold Cup.

At the same time:

Most of what posters here think about the Copa is far from accurate. I wonder how many have actually seen a Copa America game any time recently. The two big CONMEBOL nations essentially send youth squads to this tournament.

Is it better than the Gold Cup? Yes, but not nearly as much better than what most on here assert. Another poster rated it the third-best tournament in the world (after the World Cup and the European Championship). That's probably accurate, but there is a huge dropoff from the Euro to the Copa.

The best part about our participation in the Copa is that its another set of competitive games. That's all, in my opinion. It's a chance to see more players. A chance to expand the pool. A chance to evaluate those who haven't had their shot yet. In some ways, I would actually prefer to send the less-proven squad (as opposed to the "B" squad, which I think right now is a purely theoretical idea) to the Copa, where we might learn much more about those players than we would at the Gold Cup.

[Eleven Bravo]

I think it's fully possible to send two very good teams to both. It's just a matter of splitting up the players and knowing what kind of strategy you are going to have for the tournaments.

Right now (09 MAR 07), my 2 rosters are:

Copa America:
GK: Hahnemann, Reis, Pickens
DF: Bornstein, Wynne, Gros, Spector, DeMerit, Conrad (Cpt), Bocanegra, Parkhurst
MF: Clark, Beasley, Dempsey, Donovan, Fielhaber, Quaranta, Olsen, Kljestan
FW: Cooper, Jaqua, Barrett, E. Johnson

1st line-up:

------Cooper---E. Johnson------
Beasley----Donovan-----Dempsey
------------Clark---------------
Bocanegra---------------Spector
------Conrad----DeMerit--------
-----------Hahnemann----------

Bench: Reis, Bornstein, Wynne, Fielhaber, Kljestan, Quaranta, Barrett

2nd line-up:
--------Cooper---Donovan------
Beasley-------------------Dempsey
------Fielhaber--------Clark-----
Bornstein--------------------Wynne
------Bocanegra---Conrad-------
------------Hahnemann---------

Bench: Reis, Spector, Parkhurst, Olsen, Quaranta, Jaqua, E. Johnson

3rd line-up:
---Beasley----Cooper----Dempsey---
-------------Donovan---------------
-------Fielhaber------Clark----------
Bocanegra-------------------Spector
---------DeMerit----Conrad--------
--------------Hahnemann----------

Bench: Reis, Parkhurst, Wynne, Bornstein, Kljestan, E. Johnson, Barrett


Gold Cup:
GK: Howard, Cannon, Perkins
DF: Cherundolo, Albright, Dunivant, Pearce, Onyewu (Cpt), Boswell, Marshall, Ihemelu
MF: Davis, Mapp, Mastroeni, Noonan, Beckerman, Carroll, Gaven, Arnaud
FW: Twellman, Ching, Rolfe, Hill

1st line-up:
------Twellman---Ching-------
Davis---------------------Mapp
-------Carroll---Mastroeni----
Dunivant----------------Cherundolo
------Boswell----Onyewu------
------------Howard-----------

Bench: Cannon, Pearce, Marshall, Beckerman, Noonan, Arnaud, Rolfe

2nd line-up:
----------Rolfe---Ching--------
Mapp-----------------------Noonan
------Beckerman---Carroll--------
Pearce--------------------Cherundolo
---------Boswell----Onyewu------
--------------Howard------------

Bench: Cannon, Marshall, Dunivant, Hill, Davis, Arnaud, Twellman

3rd line-up:
--------Ching---Rolfe--------
------------Mapp------------
Davis--------------------Noonan
-----------Mastroeni----------
Pearce--------------------Cherundolo
--------Boswell----Onyewu----
--------------Howard----------

Bench: Cannon, Albright, Ihemelu, Beckerman, Arnaud, Gaven, Twellman

Alternates:
GK: Guzan, Hartman, Keller (for Howard only)
DF: Simek, Burciaga, E. Robinson, D. Robinson, Califf
MF: Mullan, Simms, Mulrooney, Holden, White, Alvarez, Martino
FW: Casey, Eskandarian, Gomez, Buddle, Davies

Dark Horses:
GK: Wells, Thornton, Rimando, Westberg, Brown
DF: Borchers, Namoff, Larentowicz, Garcia, Cochrane, Riley, Parke, Moor, Freeman, Ianni, Gibbs (health), Soumare
MF: Nguyen (health), Edu, Dalby, Grabavoy, W. Thompson, Colaluca, Hayden, Curfman, Convey (health), O' Brien (health), Ashe
FW: McBride (emergency use only), Wolff (emergency use only), Cunningham (emergency use only), Carr, Peterson, Ochoa, Thompson, Sambursky, Garey, Evans, J. Johnson

***If Rolfe or Johnson can't pick it up than they need to be replaced. In other words, they need to have at least 5 goals by June to be included.

[sidefootsitter]

At the same time:

Most of what posters here think about the Copa is far from accurate. I wonder how many have actually seen a Copa America game any time recently. The two big CONMEBOL nations essentially send youth squads to this tournament... A) I watched Copa America'04 (hey, it was on TV).

B) I posted the Mexico, Uruguay, Brazil and Argentina line-ups in a recent thread. While some stars were missing, many top players were in tow. By comparison, talent-wise the Gold Gup is pure sh*t.

[Adam Zebrowski]

gold cup is clearly second to copa america, that'w why sending 2nd teir talent to copa america and see who can play at that level gives you the chance to move up 2nd line guys OVER the current group who does gold cup...

i see doing copa with the 2nd tier as a major upside because of that....

enough time in 2009 to get the core group the needed exposure to top play...

if usa is in 2009 confed cup, that's do the trick