Why do you think there is so much animosity towards the south?

[Eleven Bravo]

I'm just curious to why you think that Atlanta and the rest of the south gets bashed more than any other expansion candidate?

...it seems to me that every time i even hear the south is mentioned as a candidate for expansion there's a thousand loons talking about how bad the south is. Yet when it comes to a place like Cleveland or Saint Louis who are in no way better candidates than Atlanta, it's all of a sudden a travesty that they don't already have teams. Especially, Saint Louis. Saint Louis has produced about the equivalent amount of successful soccer players as Atlanta (and that's the main thing St.Louis fans talk about when expansion is mentioned for them), but St. Louis is only going to draw fans from Saint Louis...while Atlanta, on the hand, is going to draw fans from MS to NC.

Also, they throw in our face that the Silverbacks don't draw well, but cities like Cleveland, St. Louis, Philadelphia, etc... don't even have USL teams and they wouldn't support them because they're a major league city. I guess Atlanta isn't a major league city when they're a top ten media market and have 4 other successful pro franchises.

And another thing they use is other sports, but that's crap too. Atlanta Braves are one of the most influential teams in MLB, Atlanta Falcons are doing well under new management, Atlanta Hawks have poor management and their fans aren't exactly the "soccer type" anyways, and the damn HOCKEY team draws better than most of the MLS teams. And if HOCKEY can succeed in Georgia, than soccer should flourish.

But the thing that angers me the most is when they try to throw out the fact that all southerners are ignorant, fat, stupid, racist, and inbred. Especially, when that thing came out in the NY times about the "fugees"...it seemed like everyone and their mother was bashing the south. Jim Rome is from LA, but i haven't seen one person bash southern california because Jim Rome is from LA.

Sorry, it just kind of blows my mind. Because truthfully, even if i wasn't biased, i wouldn't understand the logic in ignoring a proud region of over 30 million people that love soccer as much as anywhere else in the country. It's the same reason that i think MLS should expand to the northwest, but even when i lived in the northwest, i didn't see anything to show me that soccer would do better there than here. ...So, what do you think causes this tension between the south and the rest of the other choices for expansion (and the country for that matter)? All i know is that i can't wait for the south to get a team because every last team will be our rival.

[BulaJacket]

Regardless of the rest of this thread topic (I'm not touching that), I'd like to address a couple points....
.... Yet when it comes to a place like Cleveland or Saint Louis who are in no way better candidates than Atlanta, it's all of a sudden a travesty that they don't already have teams.....
I don't think, nor recall, anyone saying it is a travesty that Cleveland doesn't have a team.

Still, that said, some places possibly ARE better candidates when they have investors (Wolstein) and a concrete stadium plan (www.neoprosoccer.com) in place, and have acted on it (previous letter of intent).
Granted, due to politics, it is laying low right now, but, due to the real estate background and soccer history of the investor, has not gone away. When they get their ducks in a row, they'll be prime for an MLS team, just as when someone involved in Atlanta gets their ducks in a row.
Again, I'm not slamming your advocation of Atlanta, but your stance and view of outside of Atlanta.
.... Especially, Saint Louis. Saint Louis has produced about the equivalent amount of successful soccer players as Atlanta (and that's the main thing St.Louis fans talk about when expansion is mentioned for them),....
I'd have to see numbers for that.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just doubt all claims like this.
...but St. Louis is only going to draw fans from Saint Louis...while Atlanta, on the hand, is going to draw fans from MS to NC.
Not to be flammatory, but says who? (on both counts).
Hopefully Atlanta would (and you'd think they should), but why wouldn't STL be able to draw from IL, IN, KY, etc?

[FC Matt 90]

I'm just curious to why you think that Atlanta and the rest of the south gets bashed more than any other expansion candidate?

...it seems to me that every time i even hear the south is mentioned as a candidate for expansion there's a thousand loons talking about how bad the south is. Yet when it comes to a place like Cleveland or Saint Louis who are in no way better candidates than Atlanta, it's all of a sudden a travesty that they don't already have teams. Especially, Saint Louis. Saint Louis has produced about the equivalent amount of successful soccer players as Atlanta (and that's the main thing St.Louis fans talk about when expansion is mentioned for them), but St. Louis is only going to draw fans from Saint Louis...while Atlanta, on the hand, is going to draw fans from MS to NC.

Also, they throw in our face that the Silverbacks don't draw well, but cities like Cleveland, St. Louis, Philadelphia, etc... don't even have USL teams and they wouldn't support them because they're a major league city. I guess Atlanta isn't a major league city when they're a top ten media market and have 4 other successful pro franchises.

And another thing they use is other sports, but that's crap too. Atlanta Braves are one of the most influential teams in MLB, Atlanta Falcons are doing well under new management, Atlanta Hawks have poor management and their fans aren't exactly the "soccer type" anyways, and the damn HOCKEY team draws better than most of the MLS teams. And if HOCKEY can succeed in Georgia, than soccer should flourish.

But the thing that angers me the most is when they try to throw out the fact that all southerners are ignorant, fat, stupid, racist, and inbred. Especially, when that thing came out in the NY times about the "fugees"...it seemed like everyone and their mother was bashing the south. Jim Rome is from LA, but i haven't seen one person bash southern california because Jim Rome is from LA.

Sorry, it just kind of blows my mind. Because truthfully, even if i wasn't biased, i wouldn't understand the logic in ignoring a proud region of over 30 million people that love soccer as much as anywhere else in the country. It's the same reason that i think MLS should expand to the northwest, but even when i lived in the northwest, i didn't see anything to show me that soccer would do better there than here. ...So, what do you think causes this tension between the south and the rest of the other choices for expansion (and the country for that matter)? All i know is that i can't wait for the south to get a team because every last team will be our rival.

I honestly don't think a team in Atl would unite the soccer fan base in the South like you seem to believe it would. Personally, advocates for Atlanta pro soccer seem to be enamored with the Braves and the almighty Thrashers apparent success, but from all the unbiased Atlantans I've spoken with, the market is lukewarm at best. People for Atlanta MLS seem to fixated upon this idealistic notion that Atlanta will be the "South's team", and I don't believe that is realistic, logical, or feasible. In the end, I don't think its that people hate the South or whatever, its just that proponents of southern MLS make stubborn, idealistic claims without acknowledging flaws or unlikelyhoods, which makes it very hard for some to discuss expansion in a calm manner.

[BulaJacket]

I honestly don't think a team in Atl would unite the soccer fan base in the South like you seem to believe it would. Personally, advocates for Atlanta pro soccer seem to be enamored with the Braves and the almighty Thrashers apparent success, but from all the unbiased Atlantans I've spoken with, the market is lukewarm at best. People for Atlanta MLS seem to fixated upon this idealistic notion that Atlanta will be the "South's team", and I don't believe that is realistic, logical, or feasible. In the end, I don't think its that people hate the South or whatever, its just that proponents of southern MLS make stubborn, idealistic claims without acknowledging flaws or unlikelyhoods, which makes it very hard for some to discuss expansion in a calm manner.
I believe this to be a fair post. I believe it is fair to debate these issues, just as I believe it is fair to debate any prospective expansion cities sporting and soccer histories (including Cleveland for example).

Additionally, yeah, you'll just have a couple trolls who bash ATL for no reason, biased reasons, or just personal problems.

[Eleven Bravo]

Regardless of the rest of this thread topic (I'm not touching that), I'd like to address a couple points....

I don't think, nor recall, anyone saying it is a travesty that Cleveland doesn't have a team.

Still, that said, some places possibly ARE better candidates when they have investors (Wolstein) and a concrete stadium plan (www.neoprosoccer.com) in place, and have acted on it (previous letter of intent).
Granted, due to politics, it is laying low right now, but, due to the real estate background and soccer history of the investor, has not gone away. When they get their ducks in a row, they'll be prime for an MLS team, just as when someone involved in Atlanta gets their ducks in a row.
Again, I'm not slamming your advocation of Atlanta, but your stance and view of outside of Atlanta.

I'd have to see numbers for that.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just doubt all claims like this.

Not to be flammatory, but says who? (on both counts).
Hopefully Atlanta would (and you'd think they should), but why wouldn't STL be able to draw from IL, IN, KY, etc?

I'm not trying to bash St. Louis or Cleveland, i'm just trying to state that it gets a little annoying to hear every time i see Atlanta or the south gets a team that some punk comes on and bashes the south.

...And some of it may have been a little bit of an over exaggeration on my part, and that is why i posted on the Atlanta forum instead of the general or expansion forum for MLS.

...And again let me reiterate that I am not saying that Cleveland and Saint Louis aren't good markets. It's just that i don't see them light years ahead of an Atlanta team.

[Eleven Bravo]

I honestly don't think a team in Atl would unite the soccer fan base in the South like you seem to believe it would. Personally, advocates for Atlanta pro soccer seem to be enamored with the Braves and the almighty Thrashers apparent success, but from all the unbiased Atlantans I've spoken with, the market is lukewarm at best. People for Atlanta MLS seem to fixated upon this idealistic notion that Atlanta will be the "South's team", and I don't believe that is realistic, logical, or feasible. In the end, I don't think its that people hate the South or whatever, its just that proponents of southern MLS make stubborn, idealistic claims without acknowledging flaws or unlikelyhoods, which makes it very hard for some to discuss expansion in a calm manner.

You could be right, but I honestly believe if it is done correctly, it would unite the south.

granted, fans would quickly switch allegiances if a team were put closer to them, but from every southerner i've ever known, they always support the southern team. I know my cousins in South and North Carolina supported the Falcons until the Panthers came about, I know some of my good friends from Tennessee supported the Falcons until the Titans came about, and I know many people from Alabama that stilll support the Falcons, and all of those same people support the Braves because they are the south's team. One of my Army buddies from North Carolina would always travel to go see the Braves every chance he got, and i don't think my grandfather from South Carolina has missed a game. And i know if a team was put in Carolina that i would become one of their biggest fans...until Atlanta got a team of course. Think of it as how Boston teams pull fans in from all over New England.

Now, you could be right, but i think you really aren't taking in consideration how much southerners would rather pull for something southern than something that isn't.

[BulaJacket]

I'm not trying to bash St. Louis or Cleveland, i'm just trying to state that it gets a little annoying to hear every time i see Atlanta or the south gets a team that some punk comes on and bashes the south.

...And some of it may have been a little bit of an over exaggeration on my part, and that is why i posted on the Atlanta forum instead of the general or expansion forum for MLS.

...And again let me reiterate that I am not saying that Cleveland and Saint Louis aren't good markets. It's just that i don't see them light years ahead of an Atlanta team.
Yeah, I know, as I am with Atlanta. And I'll rep you for your response when it lets me.

However, I do think it is easier to see which markets "are ahead" of others moreso than which markets are "good markets" for MLS (which is where your fight about Atlanta takes place); those are two different topics. There are concrete/legitimate things to look at in the former, while it is all speculation in the latter.

I understand the battle you are fighting.
Some of those exaggerations were very evident though. ;)

[DavidP]

Regarding an Atlanta team uniting soccer fans in the Southeast: it's not their job. The job of a sports team in any city, be it soccer, football, jai alai, butt-scratching, or whatever, is to provide entertainment for the fans of the city in which it resides. Neither the Atlanta Chiefs, Tampa Bay Rowdies, Jax Teamen, nor the Miami Gatos/Toros/Ft. Lauderdale Strikers united the soccer fans in the south; they each had their own fanbase, however big or small it was. The same goes for an MLS franchise, whether it be in Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, or Birmingham; there won't be very much fan support outside their own metro area. I wouldn't necessarily unite behind a team in Charlotte or B'ham, when I live in Atlanta and support the Dynamo, but I would root for an Atlanta team. Having a team in Atlanta will only mean that there is a team in Atlanta, and no one in any other Southern city should feel obligated to support it. The Braves got so much support because TBS beamed them all over the country, as well as the Southeast. They've now lost the "America's Team" title, and their national and regional support will no doubt wane as well. An MLS franchise, wherever in the South it's located, will have only a fraction of that support outside its own area.

Having said that, I do feel that Atlanta does get short shrift on this board. The perception that Southerners, and particularly Atlantans, are nothing but low-rent toothless hicks is a stereotype that is hard to kill (I've seen an awful lot of people who could be considered "rednecks" way north of the Mason-Dixon line). The South has many very successful college soccer programs at every level, from NCAA Div. 1 to NAIA. Soccer is wildly popular as a participant sport, and many people become soccer fans because of their kids. Atlanta has a rising immigrant population (both legal and illegal :D ), and the game is popular in those enclaves. As proven with the Beat (and they were womens' soccer, mind you), Atlantans will support a major league team, especially if they win (and if they know they're there). An MLS team here would do at least as well as Kansas City or Dallas, if not better.

The failure of the Braves to sell out mid-week, rush-hour playoff games, and the woeful year after year play of the Hawks and Falcons, resulting in reduced attendance (Atlantans have been called some of the smartest sports fans, because they won't pay good money to see bad teams, i.e. the Hawks), have no bearing whatsoever on the success of an MLS franchise here, as neither does the Silverbacks' attendance, due to their lack of advertising and usual end-of-the-season on field implosion. Nobody really knew how well MLS would do in any city at first glance, as several of the cities (Chicago, Boston, LA, to name a few) had lousy attendance during the NASL days (Columbus couldn't even support a winning ASL franchise, and Chicago had to wait until the second time around to get an MLS franchise).

To those who still think we're all rednecks, our kids are the ones playing soccer, and we're the ones putting them in the programs. We're also the ones who'll be buying the tickets. To be sure, there are some markets out there who might ought to get teams before Atlanta does (Seattle, NYC, maybe Philadelphia (which was also a crappy NASL town)), but Atlanta should not be rejected out of hand as it is so often on these boards.

[BulaJacket]

.....The Braves got so much support because TBS beamed them all over the country, as well as the Southeast. They've now lost the "America's Team" title, and their national and regional support will no doubt wane as well. .....
Excellent post.

Completely OT: I don't understand why Turner didn't just bid for MLB on TNT, instead of on TBS, where he could've kept the Braves on TBS.
However, I'm not completely up on the situation, so I might be missing why.

[DavidP]

Excellent post.

Completely OT: I don't understand why Turner didn't just bid for MLB on TNT, instead of on TBS, where he could've kept the Braves on TBS.
However, I'm not completely up on the situation, so I might be missing why.

Ted has nothing to do with TNT anymore; they, as well as TBS, are owned by AOL/Time Warner. He got out of that mess a while back; that's why he doesn't have the money to mess with MLS.

[Reignking]

The failure of the Braves to sell out mid-week, rush-hour playoff games, and the woeful year after year play of the Hawks and Falcons, resulting in reduced attendance (Atlantans have been called some of the smartest sports fans, because they won't pay good money to see bad teams, i.e. the Hawks), have no bearing whatsoever on the success of an MLS franchise here,

But that's precisely why people admonish Atlanta -- that's why they think of it as a bad sports town. That they don't deserve another professional franchise until it shows it can win and sell out playoff games. The Braves' not selling out playoff games is a huge negative for people in other cities. I, for one, still think it is pathetic and inexcusable (OTOH, I loved getting last-game playoff tickets the night before on the weekend I move here!).

[Georgia Empire]

But that's precisely why people admonish Atlanta -- that's why they think of it as a bad sports town. That they don't deserve another professional franchise until it shows it can win and sell out playoff games. The Braves' not selling out playoff games is a huge negative for people in other cities. I, for one, still think it is pathetic and inexcusable (OTOH, I loved getting last-game playoff tickets the night before on the weekend I move here!).

didn't New York Red Bulls only have like 8,000 attend their playoffs games in MLS last season? and Colorado like 4,000?

[DavidP]

But that's precisely why people admonish Atlanta -- that's why they think of it as a bad sports town. That they don't deserve another professional franchise until it shows it can win and sell out playoff games. The Braves' not selling out playoff games is a huge negative for people in other cities. I, for one, still think it is pathetic and inexcusable (OTOH, I loved getting last-game playoff tickets the night before on the weekend I move here!).

Well, ya know (not a slam at you, mind you :) ), if the TV networks (and they do have a hand in it) would take into account the traffic situation in ATL, and maybe schedule the game in the 8 p.m. time slot, they might get better attendance. Even if the game sold out, based on tickets sold, a 4 p.m. game is still going to have a less than full crowd, because 60% of the fans are going to be stuck on the expressway.

[Georgia Empire]

Well, ya know (not a slam at you, mind you :) ), if the TV networks (and they do have a hand in it) would take into account the traffic situation in ATL, and maybe schedule the game in the 8 p.m. time slot, they might get better attendance. Even if the game sold out, based on tickets sold, a 4 p.m. game is still going to have a less than full crowd, because 60% of the fans are going to be stuck on the expressway.

night games make for better atmospheres anyways.

And with the Georgia heat, it'd be better also.

[jbeall]

didn't New York Red Bulls only have like 8,000 attend their playoffs games in MLS last season? and Colorado like 4,000?

I can't speak to Colorado's low attendance, but I was one of the aforementioned 8,000 at Giants Stadium. Basically, we have an eroded fanbase thanks to years of mismanagement by MetroMedia and AEG, not to mention an awful start to the 2006 season--attendance was initially good, but a constant stream of ties, losses, confusing tactics, a pouting captain, and ************ play resulted in low attendance. It was already a little late in the year when Bruce took over to turn things around, but RB did a much better job in the second half of the season.

As for the playoff game, they qualified for the playoffs on the last day of the season, and the home playoff game was exactly one week later. Most fans, soccer fans included, probably prefer a little more advance notice. I happened to have no plans that day (it could very easily have been otherwise), and so I made a last-minute decision to attend. But I don't fault folks for staying home. This isn't quite the same thing as when the Braves clinched with ten games remaining in the regular season.

I'd suggest that if you want to see how to sell playoff tickets in MLS, you look toward the franchises that are actually well-run (i.e. NOT Red Bull): DCU, LAG, etc., and not the franchises which have historically underperformed.

As to the Braves' low playoff attendance, I don't think it really has any bearing on what an Atlanta MLS team might or might not do. Atlanta is a fine sports town--y'all know this as well as I do--but an MLS team in the area will have growing pains, just like all expansion franchises do. When that inevitably happens, I'm sure there will be no shortage of BS posters trotting out the same reasons they've been hashing over for awhile now, and you'll just have to be patient enough to wait a couple of years for your inevitable "I told you so" retort. :)

[Reignking]

Well, ya know (not a slam at you, mind you :) ), if the TV networks (and they do have a hand in it) would take into account the traffic situation in ATL, and maybe schedule the game in the 8 p.m. time slot, they might get better attendance. Even if the game sold out, based on tickets sold, a 4 p.m. game is still going to have a less than full crowd, because 60% of the fans are going to be stuck on the expressway.

Excuses. It doesn't affect other cities. Or it may, and no one notices.

didn't New York Red Bulls only have like 8,000 attend their playoffs games in MLS last season? and Colorado like 4,000?

Frankly, people don't care about MLS playoff attendance like they would NFL or MLB.