France-Bashing in America

[lefutur]

For the record, I'm an American citizen. I was born in Princeton, NJ and have lived in the US my whole life. I'm a proud American...ok maybe not 100% of time, especially with Bush as our president but for the most part I've enjoyed living in this country. I have French citizenship since both of my parents are French and could easily move to Europe if I wanted to. But I never did...even when I hated what was going on with the political climate and the neo-McCarthyism surrounding the paranoia after 9/11. And I had to endure some people eager to show their disdain for France after we "stabbed America in the back". I tried not to take it personally since hey, these are scary times and people get emotional.

That said I think Bill O'Reilly is a piece of sh*t. He's an outright biggot and his popularity makes me sick. I don't despise people who voted for Bush, I think they were scared and thought he was going to protect them. But O'Reilly and his avid fans I have no sympathy for. In my opinion he just spouts hate. I sent him a very angry email after he said on his show that the looters in New Orleans should have been shot on sight (after hurricane Katrina). His views just make my blood boil. And he's one of the most outspoken France-bashers in the media. He called on a boycott of France during the buildup to the Iraq invasion and worked his viewers up into a violent frenzy of mouth-foaming France disdain.

These days the climate has changed somewhat. The war in Iraq turned out to be a bad idea. Bush is a national joke and Bill O'Reilly, although still hugely popular, doesnt seem so menacing anymore. He's just part of the Fox News brand of biased, propaganda as news garbage.

But somehow I still feel hurt and surprised when people (especially Americans) launch into an assault on France and its people. The latest example was during the Lille-Manchester United fiasco. I visited the Man U board to get more updates during the game and all hell was breaking loose. Some of the more outspoken critics of frenchness appeared to be from the US and I just couldn't sit back and listen to stereotypes and comments irrelevant to football being said in the boards. Looking back I probably got overly emotional but that what I mean when I say that it took me by surprise that I was feeling so hurt.

Today I found a blog devoted to France-bashing in America. The blogger calls himself Superfrenchie and in my mind he's intelligent and pretty fair.

http://superfrenchie.com/?cat=2

Just wanted to know if anyone else had anything to contribute to this. I have no intention of getting back into the Lille-MU debate. I wanted to know if anyone else thinks that this is an issue or if the france-bashing in the US is getting worse or dying away.

Thanks. :)

[Swab the poopdeck]

Hypothetical situation. If a person calls you an idiot, and that person has a bowl of petunias strapped to their head, one foot stuck in the backend of a cow, and the word 'idiot' printed on their shirt. Does it bother you? No.

[lefutur]

Hypothetical situation. If a person calls you an idiot, and that person has a bowl of petunias strapped to their head, one foot stuck in the backend of a cow, and the word 'idiot' printed on their shirt. Does it bother you? No.

i think i see what youre getting at...in a very round about way. basically if someone is ignorant then i shouldn't worry about what they spout and take it personally. well generally i don't. but Bill O'Reilly (as an example) isn't ignorant. at least not in the traditional sense. he's an extremely intelligent man. but for some reason or another....he hates the french. people say that every country needs someone or something to hate every once in a while in or to unite the populace against a common cause and help boost morale. ok well maybe. i think if you need to tear other people down in order to bring yourself up that says something about your character but nevertheless, why france? i mean why not saudi arabia, or china, or i don't know, venezuela? not that i'm condoning picking a fight with these countries but whatever.

[Breakwood]

why france? i mean why not saudi arabia, or china, or i don't know, venezuela? not that i'm condoning picking a fight with these countries but whatever.

Because Saudi Arabia and Venezuela give them oil, and China will soon be able to kick their asses, if they can't already.

But I see where you're comming from. I don't see why some Americans(obviously not the majority but a vocal minority) hate France. It's not like France ever tried to invade the US, hell the French help the US gain independence.

I remember walking down the street last year in my town in Ontario, and seeing a pick-up truck with Michigan plates, drive down with a "Boycott France" bumper sticker. I wanted to find that person and ask him why he would choose to put this sticker on. I doubt he actually has any personal feeling towards France, but instead he listens to the opinions of O'Reilly and Ann Coulter who see any disagreement with the politics of the United States as an attack on their country.

It's a sad world when you see this happening, and it's not like this only happens in the US, because it takes place everywhere. I see it all the time here in Canada, and I bet it takes place in France, the UK and everywhere else with free speech.

[ilv2]

i think i see what youre getting at...in a very round about way. basically if someone is ignorant then i shouldn't worry about what they spout and take it personally. well generally i don't. but Bill O'Reilly (as an example) isn't ignorant. at least not in the traditional sense. he's an extremely intelligent man. but for some reason or another....he hates the french.

Perhaps it's not the most wholesome approach to filter out all opinions that are dissonant to your own, but it saves a lot of time spent mulling and stewing over a thing so trivial as someone attacking your sense of identity. Who creates identity but yourself?

As for the boycott, it is fully deplorable given that a lot of good farmers and vinters lost business but IMO the effects are exaggerated given that most of the people stupid enough to boycott probably do not care for that sort of luxury item. Perhaps the real reason behind the drop in wine exports is that French wines have always commanded a higher price and a host of new wine regions like Australia and Chile have started to get a lot more (deserved) attention for cheap but high quality products.

[roby]

China will soon be able to kick their asses, if they can't already.



Ouch.....If that ever happens everyone else better bend over and take it like a man/woman.

As for the "French" bashing....why not? We have to blame somebody for our screwups!

Play on.....

[Pierre-Henri]

Some random thought :

1) This french-bashing propaganda is completely irrationnal. Neocons react as if France had the power to harm, or even slowdown, America. Obviously, this is madness : France doesn't possess that kind of power. Neocons are so stupid that they don't realize just how their rationale is flawed :
- France is a backward and insignificant country.
- We absolutely needed their support and, without it, we were betrayed.

2) Neocons use the same trick that all extremists use : find a scapegoat. Why France ? Well, you don't need any reason. Simply find a scapegoat (any scapegoat) and bash it, everything else is irrelevant.

3) It's not as if we were pure and innocent ourselves. I've heard and I've read, in France, some anti-american stuff that was as stupid as the neocon propaganda. Main difference, of course, is that this propaganda was issued by minority groups (mostly communists) and not representants the official government.

4) I'm sometimes ashamed by the attitude of some french people, mostly artists and scholars, who have a very arrogant attitude toward America. They react as if Paris was the cultural center of the world (correction : as if Paris was the only cultured place in the world) and tend to consider America as an uneducated and barbaric place. The "country without culture" cliché is something you still hear in France. French intellectuals easily forget Harvard and Buster Keaton, jazz music and Yale, the Smithsonian Institute and the McArthur grants, the Met, the Guggenheim, the Fulbright program, the many private fundations, all the fine museums, universities, college and excellent libraries you find nearly everywhere in America.

When I hear a french scholar make fun of american junk culture, I really want to :
- slap him
- ask him to watch TF1 and MTV, listen to NRJ and Skyrock and ask him if french junk culture is better.
- Shout at his face : YOUR UNIVERSITY IS A YUCKY DUMP, YOU MORON !
- tell him that american fundations are saving the Loire Châteaux
- ask him if, honestly, he would refuse a job at Vassar, Stanford, Carleton, Dartmouth, Brown, etc.

(of course, even if it's annoying, you can't compare this snobish attitude with the frightening flood of nazi-like hate we had to suffer after the Irak affair).

[Catel]

American guys and other MU fans had just forgotten about a detail: Frenchmen are vindictive. Never bug them. :cool:

[Real Madrid rocks!]

For the record, I'm an American citizen. I was born in Princeton, NJ and have lived in the US my whole life. I'm a proud American...ok maybe not 100% of time, especially with Bush as our president but for the most part I've enjoyed living in this country. I have French citizenship since both of my parents are French and could easily move to Europe if I wanted to. But I never did...even when I hated what was going on with the political climate and the neo-McCarthyism surrounding the paranoia after 9/11. And I had to endure some people eager to show their disdain for France after we "stabbed America in the back". I tried not to take it personally since hey, these are scary times and people get emotional.

That said I think Bill O'Reilly is a piece of sh*t. He's an outright biggot and his popularity makes me sick. I don't despise people who voted for Bush, I think they were scared and thought he was going to protect them. But O'Reilly and his avid fans I have no sympathy for. In my opinion he just spouts hate. I sent him a very angry email after he said on his show that the looters in New Orleans should have been shot on sight (after hurricane Katrina). His views just make my blood boil. And he's one of the most outspoken France-bashers in the media. He called on a boycott of France during the buildup to the Iraq invasion and worked his viewers up into a violent frenzy of mouth-foaming France disdain.

These days the climate has changed somewhat. The war in Iraq turned out to be a bad idea. Bush is a national joke and Bill O'Reilly, although still hugely popular, doesnt seem so menacing anymore. He's just part of the Fox News brand of biased, propaganda as news garbage.

But somehow I still feel hurt and surprised when people (especially Americans) launch into an assault on France and its people. The latest example was during the Lille-Manchester United fiasco. I visited the Man U board to get more updates during the game and all hell was breaking loose. Some of the more outspoken critics of frenchness appeared to be from the US and I just couldn't sit back and listen to stereotypes and comments irrelevant to football being said in the boards. Looking back I probably got overly emotional but that what I mean when I say that it took me by surprise that I was feeling so hurt.

Today I found a blog devoted to France-bashing in America. The blogger calls himself Superfrenchie and in my mind he's intelligent and pretty fair.

http://superfrenchie.com/?cat=2

Just wanted to know if anyone else had anything to contribute to this. I have no intention of getting back into the Lille-MU debate. I wanted to know if anyone else thinks that this is an issue or if the france-bashing in the US is getting worse or dying away.

Thanks. :)


Don't waste your time listening to them. You know how cocky MU and English soccer-fans in general can be. It's funny, us Americans are sometimes accused of thinking that we own the world but the English are worse.

[jpick]

when the history books are written, france was on the correct side about Iraq and america (the american government, not all americans), in our post 9/11 bloodlust were terribly wrong. we are an empire right now, and all empires have hubris and overstretch their bounds, we'll learn this painful lesson in due time, though how much havoc we wreak on the world before that time comes is up for debate. Maybe france can put up enough diplomatic pressure to help prevent the shock and awe of Iran, perhaps? I wouldn't worry too much about the france-bashing if I were you.

[brassmonkey]

I don't really think Americans bash the French any more than the French bash Americans. I dislike OReilly, Coulter, and American flavoured conservatism in general, but that doesn't make the French faultless. The French and Americans have quite a bit in common actually. Both are totally unimpressed with anything that doesn't come from their country, and think theyre opinion matters to everyone outside their borders. I also think its kind of funny how the American left thinks France is some banner-carrier of lpacifism/socialism in the world. Algeria, Nuclear Testing, the Rainbow Warrior, institutionalised government corruption and extreme cronyism, conscription up until about ten years ago, success of the far right, immigration failures, the list goes on. Don't get me wrong, I actually like both countries, but the French arent spotless

[musicl]

Religious America wanted a war.
Great Britain backed them.
France didnt.
America not happy - so slabber at the French.


The Iraq war got rid of Saddem, which was good. But whats happening now is very bad. They need to get out of Iraq.

But the USA and UK have gained more modern war experience from this war. Why they need it.......

[guignol]

I don't really think Americans bash the French any more than the French bash Americans... bm, if i've cut most of your post out, it's because i agree with that part. but there's no comparison between the "bashing" that goes on in the two countries.

in france there is a lot of criticism about certain elements of american society, particularly social injustice and runaway liberal capitalism, but it's almost always accompanied by reasonable, even excellent knowledge of the facts; by and large the french are much, much more knowledgeable about america than vice-versa.

there is also obviously huge disapproval of the iraq war, and in fact of almost all policy of the bush gov't. but this doesn't lead to condemnation en bloc of the US as a country or americans as a people.

above all, it never translates into the kind of blind, visceral hate that america's neocon talkradio gnomes have no trouble conjuring up.

of course that francophobia isn't universal. on a prolonged stay in the states in 2004, we were constantly approached by people expressing their disapproval of bush and of the war, and their regret about jingoistic attitudes towards france.

but i found it profoundly disturbing that they always took us aside and did it in lowered voices. it reminded my of travelling in eastern europe before the berlin wall fell, but it wasn't gov't agents they were afraid of, it was their friends and neighbors. what kind of freedom of speech is that?

[YankBastard]

http://www.orlyowl.com/frenchrly.gif

[from the plaines]

As others have said it comes from both sides. I have seen it allot over here, I worked at a high end liqueur store at the height of the boycott. So people would be proclaiming left and right about how they didnt want French wine. And on a few of the other French boards I am on there is so much anti US post on there its not even funny.

I still think the whole boycott France thing was stupid, and this is coming from a guy who leans more to the right on things. France is its own nation it can do or do what ever it wants. I think if most Americans understood our shared past with France they would be less critical of it.

And when it comes to the US bashing I have read on other boards, it can be frustrating to hear as well. Which is more or less America being Sparta to Frances Athens.

All and all I find it pretty silly, I am sure if people can just leave the baggage behind they would find out that the other side isn't all that bad :cool:

[lefutur]

After extensive research I think I've found the most effective counter-measure against 99% of the world's France-bashers. And here it is! :

Melissa Theuriau

http://fresh99.com/images/frenchnewsanchor/melissa302.jpg

Ann Coulter seems to be unstoppable however.

[AllezParisAllezPSG]

I think Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly should live on a deserted island together... alone... did anyone anyone watch bill on the 60 minutes re-run this past sunday night?

[guignol]

As others have said it comes from both sides. I have seen it allot over here, I worked at a high end liqueur store at the height of the boycott. So people would be proclaiming left and right about how they didnt want French wine. And on a few of the other French boards I am on there is so much anti US post on there its not even funny... and when it comes to the US bashing I have read on other boards, it can be frustrating to hear as well. Which is more or less America being Sparta to Frances Athens.

All and all I find it pretty silly, I am sure if people can just leave the baggage behind they would find out that the other side isn't all that bad. i agree, but from what i've seen the real conflict is between francophobes and francophiles on anglo-saxon boards... in france proper there is a lot more nuance in the way the US is seen and commented upon. if you see the in depth and factual coverage here of american events, from katrina to the elections to the superbowl, the stereotype of french arrogance and nombrilism breaks down immediately.

[guignol]

i want to continue, but since this isn't related to FTP's post, i'll start another.

first of all, ever since i've lived in france, being american has almost been an unfair advantage. everywhere, at work, sports clubs, the local PTA etc... i meet with a very strong favorable predisposition just for being american!

and when they hear that my dad was here during the war :rolleyes:... remember those headlines in the post: "they died for france, but france has forgotten"? nothing could be less true! the flat earth society has nothing on the NYP! every 6/6, every year, every american grave in normandy gets a red rose.

france's chief villainy? trying to convince the US not to go to war in iraq. my view on that is that friends don't let friends drive drunk... unfortunately chirac wasn't big enough to take away bush's keys. :(

and about jacqouille... i'm not overly fond of the man, but one thing you absolutely cannot claim is that he's anti-american. his whole career he's done all he can to make france more like the states. for christ sakes, he went to tulane and washed dishes at hojo's as a young man! sure, americans think his fransh aczent ees seelly, but the fact he speaks english at all shouild count for something.

[RichardL]

It's just a very simple, very effective political tactic - discredit the messenger and people will forget the message.

It's easy to say people are dumb, but whole anti-France thing was put together by smart people who know exactly what they were doing. They were happy to go to war, without need, at the cost of thousands of lives, for personal gain. What's insulting a country compared to that? They knew exactly how to avoid a potentially difficult argument.