Howard Webb's Handling of CHE:ARS Fight

[MassachusettsRef]

The best full video, with English commentary, is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8QUXoafyuE&mode=related&search=

To start, I'll say that Webb and his assistants showed great restraint, were very calm and, overall, handled this very well. In such a heated situation, I think they did the best they could do to balance the goals of meting out justice and getting on with the game. With that said, hindsight is 20/20, so a few points and questions from the video:

1) Was Adebayor the right guy to dismiss? I don't think we can tell from the video, but there have been suggestions he was misidentified. If so, though his suspension for the red might be lifted, he'll probably face one for his reaction to the (incorrect) red. That is unfortunate if it's the case.

2) I know you don't want to show 5 red cards, but how do you justify sending off Mikel and Toure, but only cautioning Fabregas and Lampard. I know this is a fine line to walk, but to me, Fabregas has some of the worst actions. Fabregas (and possibly Lampard--he's the guy Fabregas is going after but it's difficult to tell exactly how Lampard reacts) was effectively a "third man in"--does that make you more or less likely to show reds to him and Lampard instead of Mikel and Toure if you deem all the violence equal? Or, would you have just sent off all four of them? I know that you don't want to turn the game into a farce, but should Mikel and Toure face automatic 3-match bans while Lampard and Fabregas get off (relatively) scot-free?

3) Would you have dismissed Mourinho and Wenger? Surely they were going on the field "to help," but there has to be a firm principle involved. I suspect they'll face FA discipline, but should Webb have sent them from the touch?

4) Was there a 5th official in this match? It seems like there were two off-field officials with tracksuits. If that was the case, should the managers really have ever even made it onto the field?

[tmaker]

I am of course an Arsenal fan, so take this with a grain of salt.

Watching the game and replays, I am pretty satisfied that Adebayor was incorrectly identified, and that the player Webb meant to identify was Eboue, who most definitely deserved to be sent off, and upon video review by the FA will probably be sanctioned as well. There's no denying that Adebayor was originally not even part of the conflict, and didn't deserve the sending-off, but he'll definitely need to be dealt with for his refusal to leave the field, which I thought was embarassing.

Fabregas most definitely deserved to be sent off for tangling with Lampard. The dicey part of Webb's decision here is that clearly Lampard had no business getting stuck in with the initial fisticuffs. Fabregas started by pulling Lampard away, then when Lampard resisted Fabregas increased the amount of force he used, which was definitely excessive at the end of the day. Again, Fabregas clearly needs to be sent for this, but if he goes, Lampard has to go as well, since that is what game justice demands. I don't honestly think Webb believed that he could send off Lampard under the circumstances, so he downgraded Fabregas' red card to a simple yellow.

By the time Mourinho and Wenger both arrived on the field, both teams were so completely out of order that sending the coaches from the touchline could only have made matters worse. While the principle of team officials not entering the field is fairly sacrosanct, it's also a principle based upon the rationale that there is no circumstance in which a manager would ever need to enter the field. I'd suggest that in this instance that principle did not apply. If anything, the presence of both managers calmed both sides down rather than inflame the situation, and it would be very rough justice indeed to send the managers for trying to calm things down. I think the 4th official probably saw things this way as well. I didn't notice if there were a fifth official or not, but I suspect they'd have to let the rules bend a little here in order to preserve the original principle.

No doubt both managers will receive further FA sanctions, but in the heat of the moment, I think their presence did more good than harm on the field.

[bungadiri]

Agree with tmaker re: Adebayor. Based on the footage I've seen, his involvement seemed to be limited entirely to trying to separate people. He was a little bit overzealous about it, but his intention--to the extent such a thing can be read from the video--seemed to be to act the peacemaker.

Is there any description of what happened to put Wayne Bridge down?

[Hillrat]

Have to disagree re Adebayor -- if you watch the first few frames of the video, he comes in from the left at speed with a high elbow aimed at the back of some Chelsea players head. He's no. 25 right? It looked more dangerous than anything else I saw. I don't really have a dog in this fight (no pun intended) -- I like both teams, but don't claim to be a legitimate fan of either.

More on topic, full credit to the referee in this situation. In a game like this one, this relatively minor incident could have easily devolved into something much worse. The referee showed both enormous calm and restraint, but also good judgment.

JM

[MassachusettsRef]

Watching the game and replays, I am pretty satisfied that Adebayor was incorrectly identified, and that the player Webb meant to identify was Eboue, who most definitely deserved to be sent off, and upon video review by the FA will probably be sanctioned as well. There's no denying that Adebayor was originally not even part of the conflict, and didn't deserve the sending-off, but he'll definitely need to be dealt with for his refusal to leave the field, which I thought was embarassing.Eboue is the one that hit Bridge then?

If this is the case, it's going to be ugly for Arsenal. Because now the two red carded players plus Eboue will be suspended (the FA will not ignore Adebayor's behavior) and, I actually suspect Fabregas will be suspended based on video evidence. I imagine that four players will face 3+ match bans.

Fabregas most definitely deserved to be sent off for tangling with Lampard. The dicey part of Webb's decision here is that clearly Lampard had no business getting stuck in with the initial fisticuffs. Fabregas started by pulling Lampard away, then when Lampard resisted Fabregas increased the amount of force he used, which was definitely excessive at the end of the day. Again, Fabregas clearly needs to be sent for this, but if he goes, Lampard has to go as well, since that is what game justice demands. I don't honestly think Webb believed that he could send off Lampard under the circumstances, so he downgraded Fabregas' red card to a simple yellow.See, I agree with this and it is what I was afraid of. Fabregas basically gets away with the worst violence because his "partner" didn't react as badly. It's kind of sad (though, at this level, the FA will probably punish through video; but you never want to rely on that fact). I tend to think Fabregas might have seen red if it had been the third (and not fourth) red card, but even that might have been a stretch since he clearly had someone (Lampard) facing off with him.

This is really tough. I think Webb did the most that he could do to punish everyone that needed punishment, but without turning it into a complete farce. In that regard, he did very well (except for his AR's misidentification). But the fact that Fabregas, to an extent, "gets away with it," is frustrating.

By the time Mourinho and Wenger both arrived on the field, both teams were so completely out of order that sending the coaches from the touchline could only have made matters worse. While the principle of team officials not entering the field is fairly sacrosanct, it's also a principle based upon the rationale that there is no circumstance in which a manager would ever need to enter the field. I'd suggest that in this instance that principle did not apply. If anything, the presence of both managers calmed both sides down rather than inflame the situation, and it would be very rough justice indeed to send the managers for trying to calm things down. I think the 4th official probably saw things this way as well. I didn't notice if there were a fifth official or not, but I suspect they'd have to let the rules bend a little here in order to preserve the original principle.

No doubt both managers will receive further FA sanctions, but in the heat of the moment, I think their presence did more good than harm on the field.I tend to agree with this. However, if it wasn't the 98th minute and there was significant time to play, I think Webb would have had to dismiss them.

Also, as to the 4th/5th thing...in the video you see on official with an OSI jacket and shorts and another (rather young) official standing next to Mourinhio with a full tracksuit on. Maybe someone like Englishref can explain who they were and what roles they were serving.

[MassachusettsRef]

Have to disagree re Adebayor -- if you watch the first few frames of the video, he comes in from the left at speed with a high elbow aimed at the back of some Chelsea players head. He's no. 25 right? It looked more dangerous than anything else I saw. You know what, I think you're right. Well, I think you're right in the sense that that is the play the AR saw (if you watch his eyes, he's looking straight at Adebayor) and that is why the red was given. So it wasn't a case of misidentification. I'm not sure if it was the most dangerous thing or not, but it certainly could be deemed worthy of a red. In the end, I think the 5 people that got cards all deserved it (though an argument might be made that Adebayor could have got yellow and Fabregas red).

The question is, was Eboue a sixth culprit that knocked down Bridge?

[bluedevils]

I think Webb did the most that he could do to punish everyone that needed punishment, but without turning it into a complete farce.

But should the referee count this as something he needs to consider when officiating a match? Does it make a difference if it is a professional match, on TV, etc.???

I mean, somebody does something that would be a red card, but you as the referee change the punishment because other players already have been sent off?! In some ways, it sounds completely ridiculous to say that.

Maybe someone like Englishref can explain who they were and what rolls they were serving.
I'm no Englishman, but hopefully they were serving tea and crumpets at this match. Plain 'rolls' would not befit the league cup final ;)

[Mass, should have been 'roles' not 'rolls' in your post.]

[MassachusettsRef]

But should the referee count this as something he needs to consider when officiating a match? Does it make a difference if it is a professional match, on TV, etc.???

I mean, somebody does something that would be a red card, but you as the referee change the punishment because other players already have been sent off?! In some ways, it sounds completely ridiculous to say that.Oh, I agree that it sounds ridiculous. But do you also send off five or six players when you can "get away" with dismissing three? It's a lot like the discussion about a penalty in the other game. Do you go by the letter of the law or do you try to get your way through it with as little "interference" as possible. I suspect the "right" thing to do is something in between, which is what Webb sought to accomplish. Everyone would have been fine with two red cards, but he and his AR felt the third needed to be given. I'm sure he probably felt he could have given five, too, but nobody would have been happy with that.

[Mass, should have been 'roles' not 'rolls' in your post.]Lots of typing today (off and on this site)...thanks, fixed now.

[bluedevils]

I'm sure he probably felt he could have given five [red cards], but nobody would have been happy with that.

Definitely some parallel topics between this and the PK in the other Arsenal/Chelsea thread.

Does it MATTER what decision 'people' would have been happy with? In this situation, you seem to be advocating that it does, or should, matter while in the PK situation you seem to be advocating that it does not.

My opinion is that it should NOT matter, but the reality is that in many real-world cases it does matter to the referee when he is making a decision.

[bungadiri]

Have to disagree re Adebayor -- if you watch the first few frames of the video, he comes in from the left at speed with a high elbow aimed at the back of some Chelsea players head. He's no. 25 right? It looked more dangerous than anything else I saw.

I stand corrected--it does indeed look like he starts out by taking a poke at Lampard and then changes tack once Webb arrives on the scene.

[MassachusettsRef]

Definitely some parallel topics between this and the PK in the other Arsenal/Chelsea thread.

Does it MATTER what decision 'people' would have been happy with? In this situation, you seem to be advocating that it does, or should, matter while in the PK situation you seem to be advocating that it does not.Yeah, I'm clearly struggling with that a bit. I think my philosophy boils down, though, to the fact that a PK is a "yes"' or "no" decision--or a series of such decisions. Was it a foul? Yes. Would I have called it elsewhere on the pitch? Yes. Was it small or trifling enough to just ignore? No.

With these mass fracas situations, you're dealing with more grey areas. What constitutes "violence?" And what's merely "unsporting?" By a strict definition of "violent conduct," I'm sure you could have found justification to send off 8 or 9 players in this. Then again, some more liberal definitions might have only seen 1 player dismissed. With assessing misconduct there's just a lot more latitude and discretion that a referee inherently has, I believe, so long as overall justice is being sought.

Some may believe that the same holds true for a PK decision--I just don't. Right now, I can't offer a much better explanation of my thinking than that.

[macheath]

MassachusettsRef says: You know what, I think you're right. Well, I think you're right in the sense that that is the play the AR saw (if you watch his eyes, he's looking straight at Adebayor) and that is why the red was given. So it wasn't a case of misidentification. I'm not sure if it was the most dangerous thing or not, but it certainly could be deemed worthy of a red. In the end, I think the 5 people that got cards all deserved it (though an argument might be made that Adebayor could have got yellow and Fabregas red). (snip..)


I think this is right on Adebayor. If you watch the AR as the pileup happens, he is looking right at Adebayor charging into the pile, and looking like he throws a punch. Then, before the red to Adebayor, Webb has a discussion with the AR, and I assume with others on the headset.

I think reds to Lampard for escalating the situation(charging into the conflict, thus expanding it--sort of a "third man in" approach, and pushing pretty hard) and then to Fabregas (horse collaring Lampard around the neck, and then Lampard grabs Cesc around the waist, and they go wrestling off). Not actually sure about the red to Obi actually. Kicking the ball away gets him the yellow, so maybe two yellows. But he doesn't do very much violent stuff.

I like Howard Webb a lot; no nonsense with players, usually does very well. This one got away from him at the end. Maybe nothing he could do?

[MassachusettsRef]

Aftermath...

Both teams are charged with misconduct, though no specific individual charges for either coach. Moreover, Eboue is charged with violent conduct:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411246&cc=5901

And Abedayor's appeal for "wrongful dismissal" (when will the FA fall in line with FIFA?) was denied. Interestingly, he chose that route rather than "mistaken identity.":

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411268&cc=5901

So, based on everything that happened, it seems as though justice is being served properly to everyone, with the possible exception of Fabregas, who probably got off light.

[Englishref]

Cesc couldn't have been charged with VC, under the ridiculous FIFA laws, as (officially) Webb and team saw the incident and dealt with it (although unofficially, they didn't see it properly as they didn't punish it appropriately).

As for my opinion, I thought all 4 officials handled the incident very well, and dealt with it as best as possible. I'd even go as far as to say it was a textbook handling of such an incident, with the referee standing back, and the two ARs getting different angles and calming down what was happening in their area. Once it died down, Webb dished out the punishments he felt necessary, and then after consulting with both AR (so neither team or media know which AR gave the advice), he sent off Adebayor (possibly incorrectly), and booked both Lampard and Cesc.

In retrospect, Mikel would have been booked (although I think there'd be justification for a three-card trick), Toure, Eboue, Cesc and Lampard would have been sent off. But with so much happening, I think we can forgive the officials. If ever there was an example for the need of a rugby league style approach of 'putting the incident on report' so all the culprits can be correctly identified and punished, this was it. Regarding Adebayor, I'll wait to see what the FA do, but I don't think his intention was to get involved, more to calm it down and separate players. Either way, his actions were no worse that others who weren't mentioned.

As for the managers, I actually think they helped calm the situation, and it quickly stopped once they entered the FOP. It may not be strictly within the laws, but on this occasion, given how far the situation had deteriorated in an all-out brawl, I think it worked. So I might be inclined to just officially remind them of the rules regarding the technical area and FOP, and to leave it to the referee, rather than banning them for trying to be peacemakers.

And finally, regarding the mysterious 5th official that was captured, you're as surprised as us to see him there, as there'd been no mention officially of a 5O being appointed. However, Gavin Ward (SG and FIFA AR) was appointed as the 5O for the game, and would have taken over if Darren Cann or Dave Babski had gone down. Not sure why he was appointed, as I've never heard of one being appointed to an FA competition before, but I suspect it may have had something to do with the IFAB meeting in England this year.

Phew!

[MassachusettsRef]

Well, it took a few days, but it now seems like everyone is blaming the referees. Wenger claims that the AR who advised that Adebayor be sent off is a liar, because Lampard wasn't punched. Way to hold your team responsible for acting like professionals...

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411620&cc=5901

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411602&cc=5901

And, for some reason, Sheffield United's manager feels the need to weigh in and add fuel to the fire...

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411651&cc=5901

[DerbyRam54]

Well, it took a few days, but it now seems like everyone is blaming the referees. Wenger claims that the AR who advised that Adebayor be sent off is a liar, because Lampard wasn't punched. Way to hold your team responsible for acting like professionals...

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411620&cc=5901

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411602&cc=5901

And, for some reason, Sheffield United's manager feels the need to weigh in and add fuel to the fire...

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=411651&cc=5901

Neil Warnock could start an argument in an empty house... :)

[mw26]

Neil Warnock could start an argument in an empty house... :)

:rolleyes:

[Rufusabc]

Penalties for the handbags are out....

Eboue gets three-match ban after League Cup bust-up
LONDON, March 1 (Reuters) - Arsenal defender Emmanuel Eboue has been found guilty of violent conduct and given an automatic three-match ban following last Sunday's League Cup final brawl, the FA said on Thursday.
The Ivory Coast defender struck Chelsea's Wayne Bridge during the injury-time melee in the game, won 2-1 by Chelsea. Eboue escaped punishment at the time - three other players were sent off and two booked in the incident - and denied the charge.
Eboue's team mates Kolo Toure and Emmanuel Adebayor will also serve three-match bans for their red cards while Chelsea's John Obi Mikel will miss four games as it was his second red card of the season.


So, if Adebayor had just walked, he would have served his time Wednesday and been back playing by this weekend.

R

[Englishref]

Penalties for the handbags are out....

Eboue gets three-match ban after League Cup bust-up
LONDON, March 1 (Reuters) - Arsenal defender Emmanuel Eboue has been found guilty of violent conduct and given an automatic three-match ban following last Sunday's League Cup final brawl, the FA said on Thursday.
The Ivory Coast defender struck Chelsea's Wayne Bridge during the injury-time melee in the game, won 2-1 by Chelsea. Eboue escaped punishment at the time - three other players were sent off and two booked in the incident - and denied the charge.
Eboue's team mates Kolo Toure and Emmanuel Adebayor will also serve three-match bans for their red cards while Chelsea's John Obi Mikel will miss four games as it was his second red card of the season.


So, if Adebayor had just walked, he would have served his time Wednesday and been back playing by this weekend.

R

No, because it's a three-match ban at present, meaning he'd have missed the Reading game this weekend, and the following league game. The only difference is, if he'd just walked, he would be back the game after that, whereas he'll now miss it.

I do find it amazing that having watched the video (as I assume they did, given they charged Eboue), they didn't spot anyone else doing anything at least as bad as Adebayor or Mikel. Perhaps they needed 3 days of media attention to get banned as well. :rolleyes: