USA-Germany 2002 handling(?) video

[Wreave]

Hey guys, haven't been on in a while. Hope someone can help me with this one. Can anyone find a link to a video showing the USA-Germany game and the (non-called) handling by Frings that denied the goal for USA?

We're having a discussion on it on my local soccer board and I would sure like to see the video. I've seen one at some point but can't dig it up through Google.

If anyone knows of one and can link it for me, I'd appreciate it.

[falcon.7]

Can't find it on YouTube, but this works...

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/p/
Classic Videos > FIFA World Cup > Korea/Japan 2002
5:00 in

I'd also like to point out that (in my opinion) it wasn't handling, it wasn't a no-call (since there was no infringement), and the call didn't deny the goal, bad luck did. Linke did not intentionally play the ball with his arm. It doesn't matter if he gained an advantage, the key word is intent. It is clear from his reaction (and I know we're not supposed to rely on reaction alone, but...) that it was unintentional. He was just as surprised as the rest of us.

Side note, I believe the referee stopped play for the altercation in front of Kahn following that play. Does anyone remember the restart?

[macheath]

Can't find it on YouTube, but this works...

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/p/
Classic Videos > FIFA World Cup > Korea/Japan 2002
5:00 in

I'd also like to point out that (in my opinion) it wasn't handling, it wasn't a no-call (since there was no infringement), and the call didn't deny the goal, bad luck did. Linke did not intentionally play the ball with his arm. It doesn't matter if he gained an advantage, the key word is intent. It is clear from his reaction (and I know we're not supposed to rely on reaction alone, but...) that it was unintentional. He was just as surprised as the rest of us.

Side note, I believe the referee stopped play for the altercation in front of Kahn following that play. Does anyone remember the restart?

The German defender was Frings, I believe. And reasonable people can disagree about his reaction--he is a professional soccer player after all. Think he can't fake a "oh gosh, where did that ball come from?" Arm is well away from the body, he's pushing out from the post. Is that a natural playing position, or is he trying to cover the maximum amount of space, and then act like he didn't mean it? I wouldn't use the reactions, real or simulated (how can you tell?) of professional players to judge handling. Judge the action, which lots of people and commentators thought was clearly handling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38090000/jpg/_38090209_handball_afp.jpg

[Wreave]

Thanks, that does show it, though not terribly well.

I keep waffling on this one - would like to see a real examination of it with different camera angles, zoom, etc. Not just a fly-by. But this angle really does look like handling to me.

[falcon.7]

The video (admittedly from a high angle), seems to show that his hand was already there. Away from his body, yes, but on free kicks/corner kicks, it is not uncommon for defenders to do exactly what he did in order to cover more space. In one game last year the keeper was beaten on a free kick and the defender headed the ball away.

You could probably convince me to change my opinion though.

[macheath]

The video (admittedly from a high angle), seems to show that his hand was already there. Away from his body, yes, but on free kicks/corner kicks, it is not uncommon for defenders to do exactly what he did in order to cover more space. In one game last year the keeper was beaten on a free kick and the defender headed the ball away.

You could probably convince me to change my opinion though.

You lost me a little. A head is legal. An extended arm, not in a regular playing position, meant to block the ball, is not. Don't care if he was standing that way prior to the kick--not allowed.

[mw26]

You lost me a little. A head is legal. An extended arm, not in a regular playing position, meant to block the ball, is not. Don't care if he was standing that way prior to the kick--not allowed.

if its for that purpose, it'd be a handball. but ur arms can get pretty far from ur body when ur trying to turn quickly. I've always thought it was clean, but a difficult call either way. In that case, u can believe ur position better, but you can't possibly blame the ref if he makes either call.

[macheath]

if its for that purpose, it'd be a handball. but ur arms can get pretty far from ur body when ur trying to turn quickly. I've always thought it was clean, but a difficult call either way. In that case, u can believe ur position better, but you can't possibly blame the ref if he makes either call.

Right. I was responding to someone who said defenders often stand that way (arms out) to cover more space. If it's not a natural, regular motion, but a deliberate attempt to block more space, then it's illegal.

[mw26]

Right. I was responding to someone who said defenders often stand that way (arms out) to cover more space. If it's not a natural, regular motion, but a deliberate attempt to block more space, then it's illegal.

oh, certainly

[GKbenji]

I always felt Dallas' no-call was a good decision... and still do after just rewatching a DVD of the incident (sorry, no capability to post it). Remember how the ball arrived at Frings' arm: US player Gregg Berhalter slid and poked a moving ball hard towards the goal from about 5 yards out; Kahn got a piece of it and it deflected under him and upwards into Frings. Even if Frings was standing with his arms a bit wide, it wasn't an unnatural stance by any stretch, and with the deflection Frings would have had no chance to attempt to get his arm out of the way.

I watched Frings closely all the way through the sequence. He is standing just inside the post, where he's supposed to be on a corner kick, in a completely natural position the whole time. At the last moment, he pulls back abruptly and turns slightly to his left--because Kahn just about dove into him. During the the turn, his arm separated slightly from his torso--which is what we see in the picture posted by macheath and what makes it look like his arm is out unnaturally. In the full context, it's not unnatural at all.

[whipple]

Right. I was responding to someone who said defenders often stand that way (arms out) to cover more space. If it's not a natural, regular motion, but a deliberate attempt to block more space, then it's illegal.

I would not be so hard and fast on this one. Defenders often "make themselves bigger" by spreading their arms while marking an opponent. This is not illegal it is just good soccer. If the ball strikes the defenders arm or hand while marking the opponent or covering space, in my opinion, it is nothing. They are just taking space and nowhere in the laws or advice do I recall a reference to prohibiting players from taking space or restricting the amount of space they can take.

There are, however, instances where a player deliberately positions their arms in anticipation of intercepting the path or flight of the ball. They are not just taking space, but are attempting to handle the ball. If they succeed, they have comitted a foul.

[mw26]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38103000/gif/_38103669_jock.gif

hands in natural jockeying position=good
hands spread delibrately in unnatural position to increase odds of catching the ball=bad