Create the ultimate Super Team

[Moishe]

Depends on the appropriate 'moisheture' you use in your washing machine :p ...

Besides don't use conflicting amounts of soap and water - or put white and dark clothes together - in your laundry***...

It'll stain your Mosaic 'toga', or, worse - it'll blurr reality :o .

That's the problem with analyzing facts from an out of context and absolutely hear-say point of view.

First of all, a suspended player not playing the following game in 1962 was not as harsh and definitive a rule as today.

Depending on the nature of the 'foul' commited that could be quickly taken back by the FIFA refereeing board, even between games.

And that was a TOTALLY LEGAL procedure.

Think well: FIFA would never infringe one of its rules during a World Cup...

Specially when an European NT was involved in a final, and at that time you didn't have yet that eternal and ridiculous excuse of Havelange 'favouring Brazil'...

Not even the Czchecs contested it, man.

It was you (who I bet didn't even know about the fact) who - through the 'help' of our 'very' smart friend Gethomas (congrats Get!) - cherrypicked that absolutely normal and JUST decision of the board.

Now you kids both listen to the truth.

In that game (Brazil x Chile, semifinal), Garrincha had spent the whole game brutally chased and spanked by the Chilean players, and the referee would do nothing. When Garrincha - a historically well-behaving player - finally lost his patience and, just out of reflex, responded with a light kick on his aggressor thigh, the scoundrel put him off.

At the time the fact became such a world scandal that even the Chileans supporters couldn't admit it. The decision of cancelling the referee's decision was made by FIFA under roaring public and even non-Brazilian official clamour in favour of him.The Brz Confed - besides understandingly protesting - didn't even have to do much to have Garrincha back.

Furthermore the defending champs went to the final and won the Cup without 'the undisputably second best player of the world after The King ever' help: his presence in the field that day was very discreet.

He must have said: I've done enough, guys, now I'll let you play...I openly rooted in this Forum for Boca against Kaká's Milan in the WCC: all the Argentinians (with your exception, looks like) will witness to that in this Forum.

I always root for the Southamerican side. Besides I was born in a democratic Brazil still under the impact of the WWII nazi atrocities, so I have no reason to love Germans.You're right, if it were not for our 'informed' fellow Gethomas3 (is there a 1 and 2 too?), how would anybody in this Forum know that our 'rich' Brazilian Confed would have so cynically 'bribed' FIFA officials?...

But Brazil MUST have done something terribly 'unsporting' along its five titles...

You and Get keep looking for it :rolleyes: ...

_______________________________________________________________
PS***: BTW, how do you know that my name (Ariel) is one of the most popular 'soap box' Argentinian names? I have no problems at all with being a clean guy, but have you - what an honour! - consulted my profile? (con la palavra, a really great player, el 'burrito' Ariel Ortega...)

Are you still tripping o LSD? I know you supported BOCA over Milan but my comment in regards to neutrality was more geared towards national teams. In club futbol I'll always support a side from Brazil over that of Europe without question. As far as national teams are concerned, I will never ever root for Brazil. It's nothing personal believe me, it's purely nationalistic futbol and nothing else. What has concerned me more than anything Ariel is your mentioning of Ariel Ortega as a great player. He had the talent, he was just a pelotudo on a grand scale and never truly showed for the national team. Don't worry I ain't mad at you loco, it's just that your posts confuse the hell out of me. What do you Brazilians eat so that your shit doesn't stink?

[kingkong1]

xxx

[kingkong1]

Are you still tripping o LSD?Maaan, I'm getting afraid of you!...

In the glorious 60s, you'd certainly be a cop savagely beating up us, idealistic followers of Hendrix, Dylan and Janis Joplin, or in the 70s torturing the poor Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, wouldn't you? :p ...I know you supported BOCA over Milan but my comment in regards to neutrality was more geared towards national teams.But man, you said:A Brazuka being neutral with regards to Argentina are you serious?You came with this story of club/NT just now...
In club futbol I'll always support a side from Brazil over that of Europe without question. As far as national teams are concerned, I will never ever root for Brazil.That is you, not me: nobody has the obligation to be exactly the way you are... What has concerned me more than anything Ariel is your mentioning of Ariel Ortega as a great player. He had the talent, he was just a pelotudo on a grand scale and never truly showed for the national teamAnd that's my fault? :( ... Don't worry I ain't mad at you loco, it's just that your posts confuse the hell out of me.OK, cop, cool down!... What do you Brazilians eat so that your shit doesn't stink?Alfajores (taste so good though) :D ...

[Moishe]

Maaan, I'm getting afraid of you!...

In the glorious 60s, you'd certainly be a cop savagely beating up us, idealistic followers of Hendrix, Dylan and Janis Joplin, or in the 70s torturing the poor Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, wouldn't you? ...But man, you said:You came with this story of club/NT just now...
That is you, not me: nobody has the obligation to be exactly the way you are... And that's my fault? :( ...OK, cop, cool down!... Alfajores (taste so good though) :D ...

No need to be scared y no llores. Me as a cop in the 60's? With all that free love, weed and more free love, I'd never pass a drug test to join the police department.:D Now your Plaza de Mayo comment deserve no more comment than to say shame on you king. As far as the club/nt thing, my stance has always against the selecao for obvious reasons. When it comes to the Albicelestes, I have zero love for your national team. As far as clubs though that is a completely different story. Take it anyways you want.

As far as your perception that I want you or anybody else to be like me is absurd. This world couldn't handle another me. As for El Burrito, he gets the same hate as Veron in my book. As for the sweet tooth, you bring the alfajores and I'll bring the facturas.

[kingkong1]

No need to be scared y no llores. Me as a cop in the 60's? With all that free love, weed and more free love, I'd never pass a drug test to join the police department. Now your Plaza de Mayo comment deserve no more comment than to say shame on you king.I was just randomly reacting to you wanting by force to characterize me as an LSD 'addict' in this forum (and that was not the first time...)

And (what a shame): that you don't consider a shame...

Nevertheless when, in the 60s/70s, Aldous Huxley (Brave New World, The Doors of Perception), Jimmy Hendrix, I myself and many people in those times, did experiment mescaline (the active principle of LSD), not simply to get loco, as persons do today, but also to creatively investigate (Aldous as a philosopher, Jimmy as a musician, and me as a simple and modest writer) the marvelous and terrible depths of human mind, we felt there was absolutely nothing to be ashamed of about that.As far as the club/nt thing, my stance has always against the selecao for obvious reasons. When it comes to the Albicelestes, I have zero love for your national team. As far as clubs though that is a completely different story. Take it anyways you want.I'll take it the way you want: that's how you are man, and nobody can change it.As far as your perception that I want you or anybody else to be like me is absurd. This world couldn't handle another me.Are you sure you're not quoting Don Diego? :D ... As for El Burrito, he gets the same hate as Veron in my book.Really don't care that much for El Burrito either: the only good about him is his pre-name. As for the sweet tooth, you bring the alfajores and I'll bring the facturas.What are 'facturas'? LSD brownies? Yummm :) ...

[Marbur66]

.................Yashin...................

Carlos Alberto.....Beckenbauer.....Moore.....Baresi

..........Zidane..........Cruyff...........

.......Di Stefano..........Best...........

......Maradonna........Pele................


Subs: Banks, Roberto Carlos, Maldini, Puskas, Romario, Deyna, Platini.

[Moishe]

I was just randomly reacting to you wanting by force to characterize me as an LSD 'addict' in this forum (and that was not the first time...)

And (what a shame): that you don't consider a shame...

Nevertheless when, in the 60s/70s, Aldous Huxley (Brave New World, The Doors of Perception), Jimmy Hendrix, I myself and many people in those times, did experiment mescaline (the active principle of LSD), not simply to get loco, as persons do today, but also to creatively investigate (Aldous as a philosopher, Jimmy as a musician, and me as a simple and modest writer) the marvelous and terrible depths of human mind, we felt there was absolutely nothing to be ashamed of about that.I'll take it the way you want: that's how you are man, and nobody can change it.Are you sure you're not quoting Don Diego? ... Really don't care that much for El Burrito either: the only good about him is his pre-name. What are 'facturas'? LSD brownies? Yummm ...


Jesus king when did you lose your sense of humor? I've done my share of hallucinogens and honestly never warmed up to them. I'd prefer a nice bowl of some kind bud and a beer over peyote, lsd, mesc......To each their own I guess. As far as LSD brownies are concerned, pot brownies are much better. What are facturas you ask? See below.

http://amlange.com/platos_caseros/facturas-caseras-2.jpg

http://www.pasqualinonet.com.ar/Facturas%20con%20dulce%20de%20leche%20600.jpg

p.s. you were the one that first referenced LSD in a thread and I ran with it. No llores viejo:rolleyes:D

[Moishe]

I was just randomly reacting to you wanting by force to characterize me as an LSD 'addict' in this forum (and that was not the first time...)

And (what a shame): that you don't consider a shame...

Nevertheless when, in the 60s/70s, Aldous Huxley (Brave New World, The Doors of Perception), Jimmy Hendrix, I myself and many people in those times, did experiment mescaline (the active principle of LSD), not simply to get loco, as persons do today, but also to creatively investigate (Aldous as a philosopher, Jimmy as a musician, and me as a simple and modest writer) the marvelous and terrible depths of human mind, we felt there was absolutely nothing to be ashamed of about that.I'll take it the way you want: that's how you are man, and nobody can change it.Are you sure you're not quoting Don Diego? ... Really don't care that much for El Burrito either: the only good about him is his pre-name. What are 'facturas'? LSD brownies? Yummm ...


Jesus king when did you lose your sense of humor? I've done my share of hallucinogens and honestly never warmed up to them. I'd prefer a nice bowl of some kind bud and a beer over peyote, lsd, mesc......To each their own I guess. As far as LSD brownies are concerned, pot brownies are much better. What are facturas you ask? See below.

http://amlange.com/platos_caseros/facturas-caseras-2.jpg

http://www.pasqualinonet.com.ar/Facturas%20con%20dulce%20de%20leche%20600.jpg

p.s. you were the one that first referenced LSD in a thread and I ran with it. No llores viejo:rolleyes:

[Teso Dos Bichos]

.................Yashin...................

Carlos Alberto.....Beckenbauer.....Moore.....Baresi

..........Zidane..........Cruyff...........

.......Di Stefano..........Best...........

......Maradonna........Pele................


Subs: Banks, Roberto Carlos, Maldini, Puskas, Romario, Deyna, Platini.

What a poorly constructed side. Players completely out of position and a complete lack of balance.

[kingkong1]

Jesus king when did you lose your sense of humor? I've done my share of hallucinogens and honestly never warmed up to them. I'd prefer a nice bowl of some kind bud and a beer over peyote, lsd, mesc......To each their own I guess. As far as LSD brownies are concerned, pot brownies are much better. What are facturas you ask? See below.
p.s. you were the one that first referenced LSD in a thread and I ran with it. No llores viejo:rolleyes:DYa que tu foco son selecciones, ahy va:

Pentacampeones sí lloran, mano, pero de pura alegría: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, son demasiadas emociones para un viejo corazón :cool: ...

Viviré para un séptimo título en 2014?...

As far as LSD, facturas, pot brownies or alfajores are concerned - I guarantee you - all those 'substances' lose by far to rice, meat, water, oxygen and testosterone.

But, getting back to the topic, I want to do a remark and see if you agree with it:

I think it's really hard (although interesting) to 'Create the ultimate team' as the thread proposes if you are to mould it technically and tactically as a coherent block.

Maybe it would be easier to create 'the ultimate players for each position', but for an ultimate team to be successful it requires that each of its 11 individuals have the best possible harmony among them.

I remember Flamengo bringing Romário, Edmundo and Sávio to play in what we called the 'The attack of the Dreams', and Flamengo ended up the championship in the last positions and almost sent to to the 2nd division of the Brz Championship.

As far as attacks are concerned, for intance, I think that Pelé and Maradona together wouldn't work so efficiently as Pelé and Coutinho or Maradona and Caniggia, or Beckenbauer and Müller.

Sometimes even mediochre (or less better) players fit better in some positions and make a team to be more efficient than a large quantity of geniuses crammed up in stellar groups that obviously cannot exceed 11 players.

(BTW that's the problem of some European contemporary club powerhouses).

In 1958, Zagallo exerted the function of a (false) left-wing, leaving in the bench Pepe and Canhoteiro (way superior to him offensively). However, the team had already too much power up front, with Garrincha, Pelé and Vavá, and pulling Zagallo to frequent midfield more often was already an 'annoucement' of the future 4-3-3, of the 4-4-2 and unfortunately even of that abominable contemporary 5-5-1 (or 3-2-4-1).

In short - for evil or good - one can say 'modern football' was born with the brilliant tactical positioning of a mediochre player, with its ultimate, more noble and radical consequence being the Dutch team carrossel of the 70s.

Tactical characteristics and developments with which the world still learns from and which in my opinion haven't been surpassed yet.

[Moishe]

But, getting back to the topic, I want to do a remark and see if you agree with it:

I think it's really hard (although interesting) to 'Create the ultimate team' as the thread proposes if you are to mould it technically and tactically as a coherent block.

Maybe it would be easier to create 'the ultimate players for each position', but for an ultimate team to be successful it requires that each of its 11 individuals have the best possible harmony among them.

I remember Flamengo bringing Romário, Edmundo and Sávio to play in what we called the 'The attack of the Dreams', and Flamengo ended up the championship in the last positions and almost sent to to the 2nd division of the Brz Championship.

As far as attacks are concerned, for intance, I think that Pelé and Maradona together wouldn't work so efficiently as Pelé and Coutinho or Maradona and Caniggia, or Beckenbauer and Müller.

Sometimes even mediochre (or less better) players fit better in some positions and make a team to be more efficient than a large quantity of geniuses crammed up in stellar groups that obviously cannot exceed 11 players.

(BTW that's the problem of some European contemporary club powerhouses).

In 1958, Zagallo exerted the function of a (false) left-wing, leaving in the bench Pepe and Canhoteiro (way superior to him offensively). However, the team had already too much power up front, with Garrincha, Pelé and Vavá, and pulling Zagallo to frequent midfield more often was already an 'annoucement' of the future 4-3-3, of the 4-4-2 and unfortunately even of that abominable contemporary 5-5-1 (or 3-2-4-1).

In short - for evil or good - one can say 'modern football' was born with the brilliant tactical positioning of a mediochre player, with its ultimate, more noble and radical consequence being the Dutch team carrossel of the 70s.

Tactical characteristics and developments with which the world still learns from and which in my opinion haven't been surpassed yet.

I do agree with you. Balance, understanding and synergy are key. As you pointed out a team can be full of "star" players but never amount to squat. Greece is a great example when they won the Euro. They were a team without flash but they did posses a total commitment to one another and a system which took them to the top.

I guess with me the thing that irks me the most with regards to those that constantly claim South American clubs can't hang with the big European sides yada yada yada....as you pointed out, 11 men with the same vision and understanding can beat any side regardless of what "superstars" the other side may have.

[Pateau]

------------------------- Yashin --------------------------

-- Cafu ----- Baresi ------- Beckenbauer ---- Maldini ---

-- Garrincha ----- Makelele --- Keane ----- Maradona --

----------------- Pele ------------- Nordahl --------------

[mako]

Wow--this is pretty intimidating, esp. for a newbie! Well, here goes:

GK: Lev Yashin
LB: Paolo Maldini
CB: Franz Beckenbauer
CB: Franco Baresi
RB: Carlos Alberto
MF: Johan Cruijff
MF: Diego Maradona
MF: Michel Platini
MF: Roy Keane (or maybe Michael Laudrup?)
F: Pele
F: Alfredo di Stefano (or maybe Eusebio?)

And yes, I know--no Bobby Moore, Lothar Matthaus, Ryan Giggs, Ronald Koeman, Ferenc Puskas, etc. etc. etc.???

[Twix]

Wow--this is pretty intimidating, esp. for a newbie! Well, here goes:

GK: Lev Yashin
LB: Paolo Maldini
CB: Franz Beckenbauer
CB: Franco Baresi
RB: Carlos Alberto
MF: Johan Cruijff
MF: Diego Maradona
MF: Michel Platini
MF: Roy Keane (or maybe Michael Laudrup?)
F: Pele
F: Alfredo di Stefano (or maybe Eusebio?)

And yes, I know--no Bobby Moore, Lothar Matthaus, Ryan Giggs, Ronald Koeman, Ferenc Puskas, etc. etc. etc.???

So is this how you would line up? :confused:

-----------------Yashin
-Carlos Alberto-Beckenbauer-Baresi-Maldini
----------Keane----------Platini
--Cruyff-------------------------Maradona
----------Pele---------Di Stefano

[mako]

So is this how you would line up? :confused:

-----------------Yashin
-Carlos Alberto-Beckenbauer-Baresi-Maldini
----------Keane----------Platini
--Cruyff-------------------------Maradona
----------Pele---------Di Stefano

Sorry--yep. Beckenbauer sweeper, Cruijff and Maradona outside.

[MWN7]

-----------------(GK) schmeichel----------------
----------------Beckenbauer--------------------
--Carlos Alberto------Stam-----------Maldini----
-------------------Keane-----------------------
Maradona---------------------------Cruijff------
-------------------Zidane (C)------------------
-----Van Basten-----------------Ronaldo-------

[kingkong1]

It's impossible.

The great players could fill pages & pages of encyclopedias.

I'd suggest instead the creation of a BigSoccer Hall of Fame, with a list of at least 10 regular world-encompassing selections (naturally of 11 players each), totalizing 110 geniuses who played along the last 110 years (1898 to 2008), divided (obviously without repetition of players) into ‘generations’ of 11 years each (+ or – the career span of a pro football player).

The tactical system of course would be the prevalent (or the most successful) at the epoch of each of those ‘generations’ (the same being valid for their respective coaches).

Done that we’d put all that information in a computer program and would propose Nintendo to conceive the Ultimate All-Time BigSoccer World Cup game…

50% of the profit would be naturally go to Nintendo, with the next first 25% equally divided among all BS 'programmers'.

As promoter of the idea the last 25% naturally would be exclusively mine :p ...
__________________

[bosterosoy]

i tried to start that a while back, but it didnt go far :p

[bill butcher]

Firstly, I will only put players that I have seen enough of so you wont see guys like Di Stefano, Puskas, Eusebio or Mathews.

I left out some of my all time fav`s for the sake of the teams balance.
Also, my subs would be never ending so I only put one sub, a golden sub if you like.

I didnt want a team full of attackers with no dig so here is my perfect team in the solid 4-4-2 formation.....

GK - Dino Zoff (Best ever Italian keeper)
LB - Paulo Maldini (Most complete left back in history)
CB - Franco Baresi (Best sweeper since Beckenbauer)
CB - Jurgen Kohler (Superb man marker, reliable & solid)
RB - Danny McGrain (Best ever Scottish defender)
LW - George Best (Greatest ever British player)
CM - Johan Cruyff (Complete player, my playmaker supreme)
CM - Franz Beckenbauer (c) (Too skillfull for defence, my rock in midfield)
RW - Garrincha (Greatest dribbler & winger, great scorer too)
FWD - Pele (Mr complete, best Brazilian, no need to say more)
FWD - Van Basten (Most complete striker ever, absolute magician)

.......................................Zoff......................................


McGrain..............Baresi.................Kohler................Maldini


Garrincha........Beckenbauer.............Cruyff..................Best


.........................Pele................Van Basten.....................


Golden sub - Zinedine Zidane.

[Twix]

GK - Dino Zoff (Best ever Italian keeper)
LB - Paulo Maldini (Most complete left back in history)
CB - Franco Baresi (Best sweeper since Beckenbauer)
CB - Jurgen Kohler (Superb man marker, reliable & solid)
RB - Danny McGrain (Best ever Scottish defender)
LW - George Best (Greatest ever British player)
CM - Johan Cruyff (Complete player, my playmaker supreme)
CM - Franz Beckenbauer (c) (Too skillfull for defence, my rock in midfield)
RW - Garrincha (Greatest dribbler & winger, great scorer too)
FWD - Pele (Mr complete, best Brazilian, no need to say more)
FWD - Van Basten (Most complete striker ever, absolute magician)

.......................................Zoff......................................


McGrain..............Baresi.................Kohler................Maldini


Garrincha........Beckenbauer.............Cruyff..................Best


.........................Pele................Van Basten.....................


No Maradona, Didi or Platini at all? Also, why would Kohler get the nod over Forster, Campbell, or Desailly who could compliment Baresi better? Mcgrain over Breitner or Vogts? Van Basten over Romario?

It's a good XI, but these were the just first questions that came into my mind.