Create the ultimate Super Team

[Twix]

But he is the greatest Left Back of Brazil (and of the world) in all time.


Would you say he's better than Maldini and Facchetti too?!?!

[kingkong1]

Translation: "I am a jealous prick who could never hack it in profesional football".
:rolleyes:
Jesus Christ, you are one of the many ignorant people in the World. You act as if Maradona was the first player ever to have a leftist personality. You act as if Maradona was the first ever player to do drugs. You act as if he was the first ever player to be sent off, dived, or scored with his hand. And I can assure you he wasn't.I agree with almost everything you said there.

The only exception is your statement about his 'leftist personality'...

Which simply never existed.

Maradona adhered to the 'left' when the left had long ago ceased to exist in the world, and whose 'leaders' could be summed up in a decadent Fidel Castro, in a sadly demagogue Saddam Hussein, a pathetic Bin Laden, or an egotist César Chavez ...

Nowadays Barack Obama, Al Gore, Hillary Clinton & the King of Spain are way more 'to the left' than those El Pibe's 'idols'...

A genius as a player, but as decadent as those guys up there as a 'politician', Maradona, with those bad quality theatrical 'mis-enscènes' (his display of Che Guevara & Chávez 'tatoos', and the 'tatoos' subliminarly enhance even more his unfortunate dependance on drugs) in fact wants to look 'leftist' - a Simón Bolívar defending games in the altitude of the Andes and leading the peoples of Latin America against FIFA's dictatorship...

He should limit himself to the sportive ground, where he is king...

As a 'politician' he sounds more like a character of a Mexican novela...

An out-of-date Pancho Villa :cool: .

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6870/panchovillahorseback1bm8.jpg

[kingkong1]

Would you say he's better than Maldini and Facchetti too?!?!Way better.

This was not said by me or the Brazilians, but he (and C. Alberto as a right defender, closely followed by D. Santos - or it was the other way 'round?) were a choice of the most prestigious football critics of the world of all epochs (in their majority Europeans).

[Twix]

Way better.

This was not said by me or the Brazilians, but he (and C. Alberto as a right defender, closely followed by D. Santos - or it was the other way 'round?) were a choice of the most prestigious football critics of the world of all epochs (in their majority Europeans).
But can you personally justify and explain why Nilton is way better than Maldini and Fachetti or are you relying solely on these so called football experts?

[kingkong1]

But can you personally justify and explain why Nilton is way better than Maldini and Fachetti or are you relying solely on these so called football experts?I'm 60 y-old and saw N. Santos, D. Santos, C. Alberto, and, posteriorly Maldini.

So, I CAN judge.

But I'm Brazilian - I'm suspicious.

So let's let the final judgement to the experts.

That subject had already been discussed in the 'Platini All-Time 11?' thread.

I transcribe below my opinion and the voting of the international critics:


Quote:
Originally Posted by babaorum http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13240092#post13240092)
Which 'respected critics and experts' are you talking about exactly ? I would like to know. Despite your arguments your list of players is way too Brazilian-orientated to be taken seriously. Why should one consider Carlos Alberto, Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos as the only supreme right and left defenders for example ? Great players of course but I know some Italian, German or French defenders who would have something to say about it...

As far as C. Alberto, N. Santos and D. Santos I suppose I'm pretty well defended here: they ARE the best 'left and right defenders' in the opinion of the most internationally 'respected critics', as I had said before.

And that's to be taken seriously.

Platini is there too in the 'overall' list. I disagree: there is no way he could be above Bobby Charlton, Didi, Zizinho, Gérson, Tostão, or even Zico.

The end-result (in spite of the justice about the 3 above mentioned Brz defenders) is still too European-oriented in terms of midfielders.

No wonder: of the 9 polls below, 7 are European-based (2 Brz: Placar & A Tarde).

Anyway I'm pretty well backed with those data:

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wrldallt.html (http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wrldallt.html)

World All-Time Teams

Placar Magazine (1983) Yashin - Djalma Santos, Bobby Moore, Beckenbauer, Nílton Santos - Cruyff, Bobby Charlton - Garrincha, Pelé, Di Stefano, Puskas

Italian FA (1988) Banks - Leandro Andrade, Bobby Moore, Beckenbauer, Nílton Santos - Cruyff, Meazza - Garrincha, Pelé, Maradona, Puskas

FIFA World Cup All-Time Team (1993/94) Yashin - Djalma Santos, Bobby Moore, Beckenbauer, Breitner - Cruyff, Bobby Charlton, Platini - Garrincha, Pelé, Puskas

Planete Foot Magazine (1996) Yashin - Baresi, Beckenbauer, Paolo Maldini - Cruyff, Platini, Van Basten - Gerd Müller, Pelé, Di Stefano, Maradona

100 Magnifici (Venerdì Magazine) (1997)[/url] Yashin - Djalma Santos, Beckenbauer, Paolo Maldini - Cruyff, Meazza, Schiaffino - Garrincha, Pelé, Di Stefano, Maradona

FIFA Century Selection (1998) Yashin - Carlos Alberto, Bobby Moore, Beckenbauer, Nílton Santos - Cruyff, Platini - Garrincha, Pelé, Di Stefano, Maradona

Voetbal International (1999)[/url] Yashin - Carlos Alberto, Beckenbauer, Rijkaard, Paolo Maldini - Di Stefano, Cruyff, Maradona - Garrincha, Pelé, Gento

FIFA World Cup Dream Team (2002)[/url] Yashin - Paolo Maldini, Beckenbauer, Roberto Carlos - Maradona, Zidane, Cruyff, Platini - Roberto Baggio, Pelé, Romário

A Tarde Newspaper (2004) Yashin - Djalma Santos, Bobby Moore, Beckenbauer, Nílton Santos - Cruyff, Maradona - Garrincha, Di Stefano, Pelé, Puskas

"Overall Team" - Yashin - Djalma Santos, Bobby Moore, Beckenbauer, Nílton Santos - Cruyff, Platini - Garrincha, Pelé, Di Stefano, Maradona

About this document

Prepared and maintained by Marcelo Leme de Arruda for the Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation (http://www.bigsoccer.com/nersssf.html)

Author: Marcelo Leme de Arruda (mlarruda@terra.com.br (mlarruda@terra.com.br))
Last updated: 15 May 2004


(C) Copyright Marcelo Leme de Arruda and RSSSF 1999/2004
You are free to copy this document in whole or part provided that proper acknowledgement is given to the author. All rights reserved.

[Twix]

I'm 60 y-old and saw N. Santos, D. Santos, C. Alberto, and, posteriorly Maldini.

So, I CAN judge.

But I'm Brazilian - I'm suspicious.

So let's let the final judgement to the experts.

That subject had already been discussed in the 'Platini All-Time 11?' thread.

I transcribe below my opinion and the voting of the international critics:
Well according to your experts, you're correct but I would like to add that since 1996 Nilton only appeared twice while Maldini took the LB slot in all the other teams, so maybe calling Nilton 'way better' than Maldini is a bit of a stretch.

He was still a fine player, though.

[kingkong1]

Well according to your experts, you're correct but I would like to add that since 1996 Nilton only appeared twice while Maldini took the LB slot in all the other teams, so maybe calling Nilton 'way better' than Maldini is a bit of a stretch.

He was still a fine player, though.'Way better' in my suspicious opinion, let's make it clear.

And maybe those critics (who, on the contrary from what you say, are not 'mine', but 'yours', since in their vast majority they are/were Europeans) are wrong.

Maldini was a very fine player on his own - and the fact that he appeared more in the most recent polls, let's concede, is not mainly because he might be better than N. or D. Santos, but also because he himself was 'more recent'.

On the other hand, only the fact that N. and D. Santos 'still' appear in a 2004 'all-time selection' can be seen as a proof of longevity, don't you agree?...

Just for illustration: N. Santos nickname was The Encyclopaedia of Football (A Enciclopédia, in Portuguese).

When he spoke, Pelé...listened to :o .

[sidis]

Would you say he's better than Maldini and Facchetti too?!?!

off course, he was the most complete defender that walked on earth behind Beckenbauer.

nilton santos played in all positions at high level, in exceptions center forward and right wing.

for that reason he is called "the football encyclopaedia".

obviously maldini is a great player, i put him in the same level of Júnior, facheti and breitner.

[dor02]

But can you personally justify and explain why Nilton is way better than Maldini and Fachetti or are you relying solely on these so called football experts?Maldini is the best LB ever! Not only that, he's the best defender ever (unless you prefer Baresi)! Not only that, he's still going strong after making his debut in 1984. There's no way that Nilton Santos is better than Maldini. Nilton Santos is better offensively but defensively, there isn't a comparison. Maldini knows every trick in the book. I wouldn't use the more recent excuse either. Pele retired from NT football more than 35 years ago but he is still rated by many as the greatest player of all-time.

Nilton Santos would get the nod over Facchetti on the basis that he was a solid performer for the Selecao and Facchetti, despite all his caps, never really had any good tornaments for Italy.

[sidis]

in my selection maldini would be a reserve, exactly because i choose 2 defensive midfielders (i think that is the ultimate formation) but for make a good team with 2 d-mids you need defenders who attack and defend at highest level.

Nilton Santos was a fully right back, exactly because he attacks and defend very good, if maldini was choosen, gérson and cruyff wil l attack alone in the left and the team will gain not much defensively.

at all, individually i think a rigth back need to me more complete to be "the best" in that position.

greetings.

[sidis]

but in a 3-5-2 formation i would choose

--------------Pelé-------------Garrincha
Cruyff------Di Stefano------Maradona---
----------Gérson---------Falcão--------
----maldini - beckembauer - B. moore----
--------------------Yashin


maldini was a good at that position (better than n. santos) and falcão could play as righ back, you can change to 4-1-3-2 easily.

[argentine soccer fan]

I agree with almost everything you said there.

The only exception is your statement about his 'leftist personality'...

Which simply never existed.

Maradona adhered to the 'left' when the left had long ago ceased to exist in the world, and whose 'leaders' could be summed up in a decadent Fidel Castro, in a sadly demagogue Saddam Hussein, a pathetic Bin Laden, or an egotist César Chavez ...

Nowadays Barack Obama, Al Gore, Hillary Clinton & the King of Spain are way more 'to the left' than those El Pibe's 'idols'...

A genius as a player, but as decadent as those guys up there as a 'politician', Maradona, with those bad quality theatrical 'mis-enscènes' (his display of Che Guevara & Chávez 'tatoos', and the 'tatoos' subliminarly enhance even more his unfortunate dependance on drugs) in fact wants to look 'leftist' - a Simón Bolívar defending games in the altitude of the Andes and leading the peoples of Latin America against FIFA's dictatorship...

He should limit himself to the sportive ground, where he is king...

As a 'politician' he sounds more like a character of a Mexican novela...

An out-of-date Pancho Villa :cool:

Say what you will about Maradona's views, but I don't think they are relevant. I don't agree with him at all, but I understand where he's coming from. He is an unsophisticated, uneducated man, and his views are no different from those of most uneducated people who grew up where he grew up, in extreme poverty. In that sense he has remained true to his roots, even after all the fame and fortune that football gave to him.

He certainly has the right to give his opinion, and those who take his political views seriously have only themselves to blame for it. The only reason he's taken more seriously than others who grew up in the same kind of environment is that he was arguably the best football player ever. Do you think that is a good reason to make an issue of his politics? I don't.

Just let him be, and appreciate him for who he was as a player.

[argentine soccer fan]

obviously maldini is a great player, i put him in the same level of Júnior, facheti and breitner.

And Marzolini.

[argentine soccer fan]

Djalma santos, Josimar, Leandro and Carlos alberto torres was the 4 best right backs in brazil (and in all time, probably); im my opinion torres was best.

Is Carlos Alberto considered by Brazilians to be better than Djalma? I realize he was a great leader and very impressive with the ball, but looking at old videos, his defensive skills don't seem quite as impressive. (Speaking at the highest level, of course)

D.Santos from what I read about him seems like he was the stronger defensive player, and also a great leader and great joining the attack.

But what do I know? I'm Argentine.

[sidis]

Is Carlos Alberto considered by Brazilians to be better than Djalma? I realize he was a great leader and very impressive with the ball, but looking at old videos, his defensive skills don't seem quite as impressive. (Speaking at the highest level, of course)

D.Santos from what I read about him seems like he was the stronger defensive player, and also a great leader and great joining the attack.

But what do I know? I'm Argentine.

i think its very tought for brazilians to choose, much like more Leandro (82), Josimar (86) and Nelinho (74-78) too. BUt the most prefer torres or Djalma.

Djalma was very fit, but is an old fashioned RB, he rarely goes ahead the central line, i consider him at same level of Torres. In my criteria, when most recent the player is, most difficult to be a great players, for N reasons, then when two players are tied in quality for me, i choose the most recent.

[kingkong1]

Say what you will about Maradona's views, but I don't think they are relevant. I don't agree with him at all, but I understand where he's coming from. He is an unsophisticated, uneducated man, and his views are no different from those of most uneducated people who grew up where he grew up, in extreme poverty. In that sense he has remained true to his roots, even after all the fame and fortune that football gave to him.

He certainly has the right to give his opinion, and those who take his political views seriously have only themselves to blame for it. The only reason he's taken more seriously than others who grew up in the same kind of environment is that he was arguably the best football player ever. Do you think that is a good reason to make an issue of his politics? I don't.

Just let him be, and appreciate him for who he was as a player.You just made my words yours.

Regardless of El Pibe being a wannabe 'leftist' and Pelé (oportunistically) being classified as a 'rightist', I think both perfectly fit Romário' anthological phrase:

'With their mouths shut they are poets' :cool: ...

[Cris 09]

'With their mouths shut they are poets' :cool: ...

That is an absolute classic quote!!

[dor02]

but in a 3-5-2 formation i would choose

--------------Pelé-------------Garrincha
Cruyff------Di Stefano------Maradona---
----------Gérson---------Falcão--------
----maldini - beckembauer - B. moore----
--------------------Yashin


maldini was a good at that position (better than n. santos) and falcão could play as righ back, you can change to 4-1-3-2 easily.

in my selection maldini would be a reserve, exactly because i choose 2 defensive midfielders (i think that is the ultimate formation) but for make a good team with 2 d-mids you need defenders who attack and defend at highest level.

Nilton Santos was a fully right back, exactly because he attacks and defend very good, if maldini was choosen, gérson and cruyff wil l attack alone in the left and the team will gain not much defensively.

at all, individually i think a rigth back need to me more complete to be "the best" in that position.

greetings.How would your preferred All-Time XI look with Nilton Santos at LB and with two DMs?

[kingkong1]

Maldini is the best LB ever! Not only that, he's the best defender ever (unless you prefer Baresi)! Not only that, he's still going strong after making his debut in 1984. There's no way that Nilton Santos is better than Maldini. Nilton Santos is better offensively but defensively, there isn't a comparison. Maldini knows every trick in the book. I wouldn't use the more recent excuse either. Pele retired from NT football more than 35 years ago but he is still rated by many as the greatest player of all-time.

Nilton Santos would get the nod over Facchetti on the basis that he was a solid performer for the Selecao and Facchetti, despite all his caps, never really had any good tornaments for Italy.You just sound too Italian...

You could also say 'you too sound too Brazilian' if it were not for the fact that I'm backed up by solid data.

Cf. them in my post:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=14152725&postcount=65

There is no mid-term or 'I think that' - it's your word against the opinion of specialized critics of the whole world.

As you saw the expert's polls above (unsuspicious, since in their majority they were European & even Italian) elected D. Santos and N. Santos the best RB and LB of all times. Period.

No way you can 'run' from that.

Bach and Beethoven were, in the critics' opinion, the best world composers ever (with the 'maldini' Mozart running close after them).

That's a fact, theirs is the crown - and no one takes it.

C. Alberto, Leandro, Cafu in the right and Maldini, Junior, R. Carlos in the left (besides Breitner, Fachetti and Marzolini) are personal, subjective and (according to the country where you were born in & the club you root for) nationalistic or club preferences.

Highly respectable ones, I have to agree, since they too were geniuses.

Nevertheless, 'the Oscar goes to'...

[comme]

You just sound too Italian...

You could also say 'you too sound too Brazilian' if it were not for the fact that I'm backed up by solid data.


Your solid data is pointless though, as most of the results came from before Maldini had begun his career. Using a poll from 1983 to illustrate that Nilton Santos was better than Maldini is laughable and pointless.