Restart in Man U-Lille Champion's League match (R)

[macheath]

Haven't seen the tape yet, but apparently a big blow up at the Manchester United--Lille Champion's League match. Ryan Giggs for ManU scored the game's only goal on a quick restart, taken while the Lille defense was trying to set their wall. Lille complained bitterly, and (reportedly) tried to get their team to walk off before the match was completed.

Sounds like Giggs took a legitimate quick restart. Here's a quote from the Lille players:

The goal prompted an angry reaction from Lille's players, who claimed Giggs restarted play before the referee's whistle. Some debris from the crowd landed near Giggs after the goal, but he continued to play.

"When the goalkeeper asks to place his wall, you should wait for the referee's whistle," Lille captain Gregory Tafforeau told French television. "There was no whistle at all and the player shot directly ... the result is (a) goal."

So Lille confirms that there was no whistle for the restart. Of course, unless the ref had indicated a ceremonial restart, there's no need for one. Anybody see the play, or, better yet, have a clip?

[jkc313]

"When the goalkeeper asks to place his wall, you should wait for the referee's whistle," Lille captain Gregory Tafforeau told French television. "There was no whistle at all and the player shot directly ... the result is (a) goal."[/I]

[/QUOTE]

This is just nonsense. Where in the LOTG or in any other FIFA document does it state the KEEPER has the right to tell the referee to prevent the fouled team from taking a quick kick so his team can set a wall? Small wonder youth players seem to think the wall is their "right" when higher level players buy into this. If the referee sets the wall then the kicker has to wait but no referee at this level would start to set the wall unless asked by the FOULED team to do so.

[Rufusabc]

just watched it and the referee was close to Giggs and spoke to him. The referee walked away as Rooney places the ball down and Giggs slots it home!

Lille is incensed and after the kick off they push the ball out of play and walk off!!

They resume play after about 2-3 minutes of haggling. The refereee was steadfast in his refusal to acknowledge the Lille players. There was one yellow issued to the 'keeper. Quite a lot of confusion.

The 4th was not very visible on camera, but the game finally restarted with a Man U throw and missiles were launched from the crowd on the far touch line whenever a Unted player came close.

Not even a close decision for the referee. Just a bad assumption by Lille that there was to be a ceremonial restart. But the referee gave no indication of such from my reading of the play. And I hate United.

R

[Ref Flunkie]

So Lille confirms that there was no whistle for the restart. Of course, unless the ref had indicated a ceremonial restart, there's no need for one. Anybody see the play, or, better yet, have a clip?

Sounds like one of those tradition vs. the rules things. Sucks to be Lille :).

[Africa2010]

"He (the referee) doesn't have to whistle" http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x19g3u_gigs :confused:

[BC_Ref]

Sounds like one of those tradition vs. the rules things. Sucks to be Lille :).

It is one of those "tradition" vs "counter-tradition" things. The "quick free kick" is one of those traditions that ebb and flows.

My own view is that if the referee had not habitually held up play in free kicks, then Lille was simply caught sleeping. Tough luck. But if the referee had continually required the takers to wait in this situation, then I have more sympathy for Lille. My only request here is for the referee to be consistent - either allow quick free kicks where possible (handing out cards is one reason to require a ceremonial restart) or don't.

The EPL is a good example. A few years ago, quick free kicks seemed to be common. This year, they have been replaced by ceremonial ones all too often due to the crowd around the ball (I only get a limited number of EPL games, but this is my impression). Not sure if the switch is due to pressure from the top, player preference, or lack of guts. Don't really like the change

[intechpc]

From the video I see nothing wrong here, everything looks legal. However, I'd like to see the moments from the foul up to the point where this video begins. Just to understand if there is any reason (other than common assumption) that the Lille players would be under the impression that a ceremonial restart was being performed. Kudos to Giggs (and Rooney) for being aware of the situation.

[Janice]

It is one of those "tradition" vs "counter-tradition" things. The "quick free kick" is one of those traditions that ebb and flows.

My own view is that if the referee had not habitually held up play in free kicks, then Lille was simply caught sleeping. Tough luck. But if the referee had continually required the takers to wait in this situation, then I have more sympathy for Lille. My only request here is for the referee to be consistent - either allow quick free kicks where possible (handing out cards is one reason to require a ceremonial restart) or don't.

The EPL is a good example. A few years ago, quick free kicks seemed to be common. This year, they have been replaced by ceremonial ones all too often due to the crowd around the ball (I only get a limited number of EPL games, but this is my impression). Not sure if the switch is due to pressure from the top, player preference, or lack of guts. Don't really like the change

I would adamantly disagree here. There is no lack of guts by referees at this level, occassional confusion with DIRECTIVES by those that control the assignments has way more to do with undermining the official confidence than how to proceed if one team wants to play and the other expects not to.

The referee has NO Obligation to the defending team to make a dfk a ceremonial one UNLESS as you state it is required to caution or send off or dispell an ugly incident or at the SOLE request of the affected team. This needs to happen more often as consistantly interfering is not our job it is in fact to interfere as little as possible.

Players respond DIRECTLY to the referee if asked do you want ten yards? If it appears they might, UNTIL a referee CLEARLY indicates to the kicker we will WAIT for the whistle as a defender I must be ready and on guard because the response as it was in this case No, can I go? takes as little time as Yes give me ten! Who cares what the defenders want the answer to be!

A referee who tries to enforce the 10 yards can not be faulted if the affected team requests ten yards more often than take a chance with a quick kick because it is in fact a risk not an advantage to do so! It specifically states in the FIFA Q&A section if the quick kick is intercepted we allow play to continue. Free kick specialist need some distance to get the ball up and then down, 10 yards seems to do fairly well. This is a Champion league match players need to bring their A game and attention span to the party. Referees are asked SPECIFICALLY to avoid unneccessary cards afor moving violations within the elite levels and save them for the match between the players not as a control need by the referee. Do not confuse tradition with expectations, realistic or otherwise!

[falcon.7]

I didn't see the game, but from the short video, it appeared that the Lille players (including the 'keeper) were under the impression, real or mistaken, that a whistle would restart play. By the book though it looks legal. I was told by a very highly respected and experienced state referee that players have a right to know when the ball is in play. If the Lille defenders thought that a whistle was forthcoming, this would seem to infringe that right.

The video didn't show much before the kick was taken. If either Giggs or Rooney had requested a distance check on the wall, than a whistle would have been needed. Otherwise, it's up to the defence to get themselves organized.

For me, the bigger issue is what happened after. The Lille players obviously attempted to intimidate the referee into changing his decision, which FIFA has stated time and again is a big no-no. Hopefully UEFA will take action and protect its referees from this kind of abuse. Thoughts?

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

It would have been different if the official had been counting off steps for the wall or disciplining players, but he simply moved away from the ball. Quick restart, smart play, well-taken goal. That's it.

As falcon.7 said I think the bigger issue in this game is how the Lille fans and players acted. If the team really left the field (I only saw the goal clip), then they should all be punished because that is a yellow card offense and those that had cards already should be made unavailable to play in the return leg. Lille will probably get hit with a typical "failure to control players" fine and warning.

This match had a host of problems, one being that some Man Utd fans may have got caught in a crush (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/6380837.stm). Plus the missiles being thrown from the crowd. I agree, hopefully UEFA or FIFA take a look at what happened on and off the pitch in this tie.

[Wahoos1]

I didn't see the game, but from the short video, it appeared that the Lille players (including the 'keeper) were under the impression, real or mistaken, that a whistle would restart play. By the book though it looks legal. I was told by a very highly respected and experienced state referee that players have a right to know when the ball is in play. If the Lille defenders thought that a whistle was forthcoming, this would seem to infringe that right.

The video didn't show much before the kick was taken. If either Giggs or Rooney had requested a distance check on the wall, than a whistle would have been needed. Otherwise, it's up to the defence to get themselves organized.

For me, the bigger issue is what happened after. The Lille players obviously attempted to intimidate the referee into changing his decision, which FIFA has stated time and again is a big no-no. Hopefully UEFA will take action and protect its referees from this kind of abuse. Thoughts?


And in a cermonial restart, the ref clearly hold up his whistle, places himself in front of the ball and walks to the wall. If he backs off of both teams it is clear he is not setting a wall.

[bluedevils]

And in a cermonial restart, the ref clearly hold up his whistle, places himself in front of the ball and walks to the wall.

While this is a very common mechanic, it is NOT a FIFA-mandated worldwide mechanic. In fact, a USSF memo from a few years back specifically advised referees that holding the whistle overhead and pointing should be used only as a last resort. I.e., USSF did not want its referees using this mechanic a lot. This stance seems to have changed somewhat, and the push now seems to be, make it clear what you are doing so there is no confusion.

[bluedevils]

When the goalkeeper asks to place his wall, you should wait for the referee's whistle," Lille captain Gregory Tafforeau told French television. "There was no whistle at all and the player shot directly ... the result is (a) goal."


This is just nonsense. Where in the LOTG or in any other FIFA document does it state the KEEPER has the right to tell the referee to prevent the fouled team from taking a quick kick so his team can set a wall? Small wonder youth players seem to think the wall is their "right" when higher level players buy into this. If the referee sets the wall then the kicker has to wait but no referee at this level would start to set the wall unless asked by the FOULED team to do so.

I wholeheartedly agree with your good post.

However, and note I have not seen the clip so am speaking generally here, I contend it is NOT a good idea for the referee to put himself very close to the restart and talk to the players and then NOT restart ceremonially. This does invite confusion, as players may reasonably (though incorrectly) think the whistle will come before the ball is kicked.

Shame on professional players for not understanding the laws, but the referee needs to be smart and avoid doing things that may cause confusion.

[macheath]

More from the post-game--if these quotes from the Guardian are right, then things in France are pretty crazy. Note how the Lille coach defends his team's threatening to walk off the pitch, and what he says about how Giggs should have been punished. Just in case you thought it was only U-10 recreational coaches who don't know the rules...

Ferguson's remarks drew a withering response from Lille's coach, Claude Puel, who denied that his players intended to leave the pitch and, in a bizarre defence, insisted that it was "tradition" for French sides to complain about refereeing decisions in such a manner. "I don't understand why Alex Ferguson has said anything on the matter," he said. "He shouldn't have said anything. I want to underline that the players never intended to leave the field. In France, this is the way we do things but we've had this with Ferguson before. Ferguson likes to influence referees and he enjoys trying to create polemic situations but I don't want to be bogged down with these problems."

Puel claimed that Giggs's goal should not have stood. "It should have been a yellow card. In France a player can even be sent off for taking a free-kick so quickly. The rules are very clear."

[Englishref]

It seemed to me to just be a clash of refereeing cultures. Clearly in France, referees don't allow quick free kicks and/or clubs don't use them, whereas in England, referees ask teams if they want a quick one or not, and depending on the situation, some players in particular, like to take them (e.g. Henry).

Unfortunately for Lille, the free kick was entirely correct, and it was their behaviour after that which requires investigation.

[bluedevils]

More from the post-game--if these quotes from the Guardian are right...

I thought France was a member of UEFA, which is a member of FIFA, which publishes the LOTG, which the member confederations and nations are supposed to follow during matches played in their country...

I mean, if the French coach is right about what he is saying about French football, then they are way out of touch with the world governing body when it comes to restarts.

[NHRef]

I am going to disagree, sort of, with everyone here. Technically this is a valid goal. However, what in the world is the ref doing standing there talking to players?? I know the video doesn't show what led up to this, but with the ref standing right there talking to the attackers, it MIGHT give the IMPRESSION that he is doing a ceremonial restart.

Play had stopped, you can see Rooney (?) walking away from the wall with the ball in his hands and the ref talking with a second attacker at the spot the ball will eventually be placed. In my opinion, he shouldn't have been there, it gives a possible impression that he is doing a ceremonial restart.

I try to stay away from the spot until asked to intervene for just this reason.

[Ballon d'or Identity]

I thought France was a member of UEFA, which is a member of FIFA, which publishes the LOTG, which the member confederations and nations are supposed to follow during matches played in their country...

I mean, if the French coach is right about what he is saying about French football, then they are way out of touch with the world governing body when it comes to restarts.

Quite frankly i've never seen a french team looking to be leaving the pitch when they get a goal they wish they hadn't got.
I don't see what Puel is talking about. Maybe he was misquoted or it was badly translated, but in France we don't do that either.

[Midorit]

However, and note I have not seen the clip so am speaking generally here, I contend it is NOT a good idea for the referee to put himself very close to the restart and talk to the players and then NOT restart ceremonially. This does invite confusion, as players may reasonably (though incorrectly) think the whistle will come before the ball is kicked.

That's what I was thinking.The refree in this case backs away from the ball quickly,probably in order to indicate that Giggs wanted to take the freekick now.Maybe if the refree stands in front of the ball while talking to the taker,it will be clearer to everyone?I don't know...

[uniteo]

I am going to disagree, sort of, with everyone here. Technically this is a valid goal. However, what in the world is the ref doing standing there talking to players?? I know the video doesn't show what led up to this, but with the ref standing right there talking to the attackers, it MIGHT give the IMPRESSION that he is doing a ceremonial restart.

Play had stopped, you can see Rooney (?) walking away from the wall with the ball in his hands and the ref talking with a second attacker at the spot the ball will eventually be placed. In my opinion, he shouldn't have been there, it gives a possible impression that he is doing a ceremonial restart.


From this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Bh0S1otCg and another clip I got the impression the ref was only indicating the spot of the free kick, he may have said something or not, not clear to me from this video but if he did say something it was in passing and not "talking to the players"

And what if Giggs asked "can I take it now?" Is he supposed to turn around and shout "YES, you can take it now!"

There is a reason teams all over the world send someone to stand in front of the ball on a dangerous free kick like this...to force the ATTACKING team to ask for the referee to intervene and have a ceremonial restart.

And let's not forget that the Free Kick is a penalty for breaking the rules, they have no claims to delaying the restart to their advantage and, in fact, SHOULD be put at a disadvantage in the free kick situation. As someone who coaches youth teams it annoys me to no end that my teams are usually not allowed by refs to take quick free kicks...the forced ceremonial restart only encourages foul play.